However, fewer breeders stand by this idea today as the market is asking for taller horses. No horse breed is static and I think that we have to allow a breed to adjust to what it can be used for, otherwise the market will be gone and so will be breed in a few generations.
We must not loose the typical traits though, in our work for breeding taller Tekes, type and soundness must always come in first hand.
Tall size has become more important to those who want to have their horses elite graded by the Russian studbook, the studbook has decided that small stallions according to them small is below 157 cm (15.2) cannot become elite graded.
Good or bad, the future will tell. Most breeders though will look at type, conformation and harmony in the horse rather than taking our the measuring stick. And hopefully we will see more educated breeders in the west that look at the horse and not so much as the Russian grading.

I my personal opinion we do have the Nissean type of horses in the Teke breed, a few examples are;
The excellent broodmare Pampa, she has the Roman nose and the body build of the ancient Nissean horse, personally I think that Arab himself, his son Absent, stallions like Agnets, Ararat and Akhmed are of the Nissean type of horse. I would also like to place Gayaz there. I will collect and publish photos for you to look at and see for yourselves. I would say that there is a strain within the Teke breed that is most resembling the Nissean horse as it has been described.
They are the horses that by the founders of the modern Russian studbook referred to as the massive type. The massive type lines like Dor Bairam and Kir Sakar and Skak are more or less gone, the massive line we have to select from is the Arab line.
I would also like to add the Garem line of the Gelishikli line that are also massive and tall horses.

Here is the stallion Singapour, he is to me the Nissean type with the Teke elegance. More really massive boys later.

1. Kerri-Jo Stewart05/02/2007 10:54:03
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I have read about three standard types of Tekes. I was also under the assumption that most of the Tekes in NA are the massive type - like Darginka (more by body type than by height). Would you post 3 pictures sid-by-each of each of the types (or 2 if you only recognize 2 types). I'm just curious!

Also, although I think grading is important to some breeders for marketing, in general people who are buying them just want a horse for what they want to do and choose the best for them. Another persons opinion won't matter. And then, once we bond with them, nothing else matters!!

2. Heather05/02/2007 11:11:08

I know this will sound like a silly question to those of you well acquainted with Teke antiquity, but when was the first written stud and/or mare books for tekes kept? I was curious as I was thinking of the Bedouins and their books of both Arab sire and mare families that go back many human generations, and how these are treasured within the breed. Where is the earliest documentation of Tekes found (in reference to stats like height, line, etc.), or does the history of the breed make it too difficulty to always denote Tekes from other Scythian horses?

3. Carolyn05/02/2007 11:44:32

The Teke was not the only type of Scythian horse. In the Pazyryk burials there were the Teke-type horses, but also what Rudenko calls 4 draught horses. In Scythian art you can see some basic differences between horses- some are more Teke-y in build with long, graceful lines and fine features, while others are shorter and stockier, more like a Tarpan or Przewalski horse. I don't doubt that the Nisean horse became intertwined with the Teke, or that the two strains influenced each other, but I have not been able to see them as the same 'breed' for quite some time. When talking about horses from the ancient word I am hesitant in my use of the word breed- for the literary sources we are dealing with the Greeks and the Romans who didn't really define a breed of horse the way we do today; their horses were named for the region in which they were bred and branded- there were not necessarily specific characteristics that had to be met for the horse to be of that breed. I suppose a good example is Bucephalus who is called a Thessalian but has been connected (rightly I think) to the Teke- even if he is a Teke, he was bred and born in Thessaly and bears the Thessalian brand, regardless of his eastern descent.
Right, so we know that the Nisean horse came from Media and the Nisean plains were alfalfa grew. In the Persian empire this horse was prized and various tribes/villages etc had to contribute a certain number of them as tribute to the king each year. His chariot and that of Ahura Mazda were drawn by Nisean horses (the divine chariot by 4 white ones). Any images I have seen of the Nisean-type horses look nothing like the Teke, especially when placed alongside images the Teke-type horses. I think looking at the reliefs from the Apadana staircase at Persepolis, the Nisean horses are almost draught-like in their appearance with very thick-set bodies and short legs. I don't think even the massive line of Tekes resembles this. There is a stronger resemblance to the Teke in the Assyrian reliefs from Nineveh than in Persian depictions of the Nisean. The Nisean was more suited to the Persian style of cavalry which involved controlled charges and the use of spears and javelins- a massed body moving together. In such cases the breadth and sturdiness of the Nisean horse was very useful. The Teke, on the other hand, is well suited to the Scythian/Parthian etc horse archers who moved light and fast, galloping in circles around their enemies while shooting into their formations. With the Parthians the Teke horses would have been used by the light-armed archers, while the Nisean horses would be used by the heavier cavalry who charged the enemy ranks after the archers had broken them up- ie. the battle of Carrhae in 53. It is probable that the Sarmatian caraphract cavalry rode Teke horses with a Nisean influence- making them more massive in type to better carry the heavy armour (both horse and human) of the cataphract. This is entirely uncertain, going out on a limb even, but perhaps the massive line of the Teke originated way back in antiquity when the Teke was crossed with the Nisean. Unfortunately we don't have studbooks or breeding manuals from the period- only artistic and archaeological remains, so your guess is a good as mine. But I don't see it as improbable that the two best breeds of antiquity were at one point bred together to create a new type of warhorse.
And there I will end my rambling for now! (Must go now to write my paper on the Scythians and their horses..how ironic really!)

4. maria05/02/2007 12:17:40

Perhaps the label Nisean is not historically accurate but in terms of types within the Teke breed, it is much better to group similar horses under a label (whatever it is) and discuss their characteristics, rather than the blanket statement that there are three types in the breed and then every horse is forced into one of them. There are so many AT, especially those with not-very-good type, who don't really fall into any of these supposed three types. So I look forward to the pictures of Jessica's Nisean-type individuals, so that we can continue to develop an eye for a true variations in GOOD type withint the breed!

5. Leonid05/02/2007 12:33:44
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Я воспринимаю историю, как объективную данность и древность ахалтекинской лошади для меня аксиома, не подлежащая сомнению. Безусловно текинцы видоизменялись во времени и соответствовали вкусам своих владельцев в каждый определённый период истории. Общим во все времена было одно - эталонное благородство этих лошадей.
Сегодня я воспринимаю ахалтекинских лошадей, как объективную реальность, которая досталась нам по наследству от предков. Наша задача производить лошадей с учётом требований современных условий (рынка), сохранив то, что делало эту лошадь лучшей в течении веков - благородство. Моя личная связь в веках произошла через В. Шамборанта, кто-то имеет других проводников в текинский мир. На каждом историческом этапе мы что-то теряем, что-то находим. Вот сегодня мы практически потеряли туркменское коннозаводство, там отсутствует учёт, теряется осевая линия - сохранение благородства, эпидемия случной болезни. Поэтому надо хранить то, что имеем и развивать это. Всё очень хрупко и держится на энтузиастах. История это конечно здорово и очень важна для укрепления имиджа породы, но мы сегодня должны предложить программу развития и продвижения породы. По крайней мере то, что я вижу и слышу у вас на Западе - это чистой воды любительство, хоби. Ни для кого из вас (за небольшим исключением) коннозаводство не является профессией. А значит нет серьёзной работы. Текинцы попали на Запад с 70-х годов, за всё это время не сделанно ни одной серьёзной маркетинговой акции, ни одного успеха в спорте, не проведенно ни одной скачки. Есть Поллинг, но это скорее закрытый клуб, где практически не появляются новые лица.

6. Heather05/02/2007 13:27:59

Leonid,
Taking into consideration the offense to any written language Babel Fish translating is, my question is this:
I see your point that historically there was only the consideration of purity (Babel Fish said "dignity" which I interpreted to mean purity), but I think that scientifically it is not unrealistic to consider Carolyn's suggestion that this massive Scythian horse could have resulted from finer Teke-like horses, and the more draught-type horses, and this could have led to the "massive" akhal-teke lines. Like she pointed out, from a historical perspective, "purity" could have been denoted by region of birth, and not by a specific bloodline. The fact of the matter is everything evolved - and continues to - and the AT, as the oldest recognized breed in the world or not - still evolved from a mixture of finer and courser equines into the lines we value today. How is insinuating this at odds with your view of the breed? Everything has a root in history that is likely far less glamorous then we'd like!

Carolyn,
I LOVE the battle of Carrhae! I think I will want to read your thesis when you're finished. I'm sure you know that battle is credited with killing the 1st triumvirate. Besides, as a Celt, I have to love examples of the Romans getting slammed, event though their history is so fascinating... they did eventually killed our Vercingetorix, but they never made it north of Hadrian's Wall! Are you familiar with the Circle of Ancient Iranian Studies? It's not 100% related to your thesis, but I'm sure there's some pertinent info. A lot of it may be redundant, but I thought I'd pass it along. They have a website at http://www.cais-soas.com

7. Carolyn05/02/2007 13:43:44

Yes Carrhae is wonderful- I enjoy when the Romans get a taste of their own- and the so called 'barbarians' get the respect that is due to them (I get a bit sick of the Greco-Roman-centric sources sometimes!)

The Akhal Teke is of great importance to me and the work I do as it is a pure breed that can be traced back several thousand years to the period I study. The Teke and a few other breeds that exist in Greece and the Mediterranean basin provide the foundation for a lot of what I do. As horse people (and particularly Teke people) you understand that each breed of horse has its own characteristics- physically and personality-wise and this dictates how the horses are trained and so forth. You have no idea (or maybe you do) how frustrating it is to read or listen to other academics who assume that all horses are identical that they are like cars or tanks- you point them at something, push a button and they do exactly what you want. Also, the scholars to do take a breed of horse into account always use the arab breed as their example, which is all well and good but physically the arab is not built like other breeds, so how can you take that and use it as the template for the horse in the ancient world? The Teke is far better choice and can be used as a basis for comparison with the Nisean and Thessalian etc.

8. Leonid05/02/2007 14:08:03
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Not purity. Nobility!

9. Leonid05/02/2007 14:15:08
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Purity is derivative of nibility.

10. Heather05/02/2007 14:25:31

Leonid,
My mistake. I was guessing mostly with the translation. Not to pick at semantics, but purity as a derivative of nobility? You mean Purity comes from Nobility? Can you specify your meaning? In reference to the thread, are you saying that any horse with suitably noble characteristics was integrated into the "pure" breed back when the breed itself was being formed? I think I am misinterpreting you, to be honest, but am trying to clarify your stance. Honestly, my apologies. We all of us here struggle to express ourselves eloquently across language barriers, but I really do enjoy the process, and value what you have to say.

11. maria05/02/2007 19:36:18

Translation of Leonid's earlier comment: I perceive history as an objective reality and the ancient origins of the Akhal-Teke horse is an indisputable given to me. No doubt, Teke had changed over time and corresponded to the tastes of their owners at any given point in history. There was, however, a common thread - the elite nobility of these horses. Today, I perceive the Akhal-Teke horses as an objective reality which we have inherited from our ancestors. Our goal is to produce horses taking modern (market) needs into account, but preserve at the same time those qualities which made this horse the best in the course of the centuries - its nobility. My personal connection through time is via V.P. Shamborant, other people have been introduced into the Teke world by other people. At any given point in history we loose something and we also find something. For example, today we have practically lost the Turkmen horsebreeding tradition: there is no registration, the core aim is lost - the preservation of the noble quality of the horse, there is an epidemic of breeding desease (???). Therefore, we need to preserve what we still have and develop it. It is fragile and rests on enthusiasts. History is a good thing and is important in supporting the image of the breed but today we have to offer a programme of breed development and promotion. All that I see and hear from the West - is completely amateurish, a hobby. None of you, with very few exceptions, is engaged in breeding as a profession. Teke came to the West in the 1970s but in this time, there hasn't been a single marketing campaign, no real achievements in sport, not a single race. There is Polling but it's more a closed club, where there are no new faces.

12. Carolyn05/03/2007 00:41:57

Leonid- I am not a breeder, but you can rest assured that I will promote the Teke and its place in history (and modern society) to the best of my abilities. I always make sure that there are images of Tekes in my conference presentations and such. This is a breed that definitely should not be forgotten.

13. Kerri-Jo Stewart05/03/2007 01:29:59
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I am an amateur enthusiast for sure, and really proud to know such noble animals. I hope to gain guidance from those who are professional breeders, but my main goal is really just to enjoy and play with my horses, these most magnificent creatures!

Unfortunately I am not ready myself to get back into endurance riding. I will get back into it though. Tekes are starting to show up in endurance in Europe now!!

I would love to learn more about breed development and certainly promotion as well. I have heard that MAAK gives courses, but I do not speak Russian. I hope that maybe the ATAA will take that up!

And about amateur enthusiasm: check out http://catha.ca
Hopefully we can do something with the Canadian Akhal-Teke Horse Association!

14. Kerri-Jo Stewart05/03/2007 01:37:34
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

What is polling?
(Есть Поллинг, но это скорее закрытый клуб, где практически не появляются новые лица.)

15. laurence Bougault05/03/2007 03:38:12
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

leonid,
You're 100% right. At the moment, no professionals are interested in AT in France. I don't know if it will arrive or not. But the economical conditions are very different from yours too. In France, 50% of horse breeders have only one mare! And it is like that even in breeds that are doing very well, like french trotters, that are very well known in races, french arabs, that are world champions in endurance, etc. We don't have the space and the money to have breeders like you are. The bighest i know in english TB have 60 mares.
AT in west will find professionals if they are good enough to win in competitions in the olympic disciplines. And to find a good horse you need a lot of horses. A crack doesn't arrive each day. But if you have a lot of horses, the price for a "normal" horse, who isn't a crack, is very low. So you can hope money only from your crack, if he comes. That is the market in West. The french arabs were so many that a rich man start to organize arabs races in France and they do selection for races. 20 years latter, there is a new type of arabs: arabs racers that come very close from the TB races records. I don't think you can select for type and performance in the same time. You can't select for dressage and endurance at the same time, etc. You need to choose for what you want your horse. It's not the same breeding and not the same training. No AT's races in west. So we need to find something else. Endurance is easy to train, a lot of people try because you don't need to be a very good rider. But they are thousands horses in that game! What i think is : english TB are very good in CCE (what's the translation: triatlon?), AT should be as well. Amateurs isn't a problem, the problem is amateurs without knowledge.
About the Nisean, should be possible to know exactly because of the horses bones they find on the archeological site. Possibly it's informations in that book : Prehistoric steppe Adaptation and the horse, Mc Donald institute Monographs, University of Cambridge, 2003?

16. Nathalie05/03/2007 04:16:10

About sizes of Teke, it is very interesting to study the studbook 1 and see the incease of the size of about 5 cm : in 1930 average size for stallions 154 cm and mares 153 cm. Bek Nazar Dor was 152 . Boinou was 151 . Posman 154 . Melekush 152. Dor Bairam 155. There was a lot of horses under 155. But I notice big horses in the same period : these horses have between 5 and 10 cm more than the other horses. For exemple Dor Depel by Toporbai 159 cm. Dyk Ayak 163 cm. Kizil by Everdi Teleke 161 cm.
How explain this big difference within the breed ? More food for some horses and less for others ? I don't think ... crosses with english thourougbred ? Kizil has indeed 1/16 ... but when you look at the partbred section, I notice that the size do not incease really with english blood.
Maybe there are different breeds in a general breed that Russian has called Akhal Teke breed ? When you see a photo of Yulduz and a photo of Kir Sakar or Absent, they look really so different !

17. Jessica05/03/2007 11:15:44

Kerry-Jo, I agree with Leonid that the Tekes most important trait is nobility, difficult to define theoretically, you have to train your eye to see and understand the difference between massive-elegant and heavy-coarse. Elegant-refined to underdeveloped-bad body buildt.
Maria is right about the fact that you cannot excuse every Teke by using the body type definitions when a horse might belong to the category mediocre.
Everyone can do whatever they want with their horses and it's great that so many feel that by buying a Teke also feel like they want to promote the breed to the world.
However, it is important to be able to look beyond your own horses as well as recognise the good and bad in your own animals, otherwise you will not be credible in your promotion.

Tekes have been very well promoted and shown and competed in eventing, endurance, show jumping and dressage in the west since the 70's when the breed was first imported to Germany.

The number of Tekes and Teke owners have increased dramatically in the west since I begun investigating the breed in 1987.

The education and service to breeders and new owners have been more or less non- existant, the work with creating a strong brand name for the breed has been non-existant in the west. The information/marketing gap is filled by each and everyone involved in the breed and thereby the quality of marketing and information is low.
The Russian state via VNIIK has not understood and studied how other breeds like for example the Spanish horses spend time and efforts on promoting the breed, by building quality into the brand name as well as educate breeders/owners and promote the do-gooders in Europe as well as on the world's largest horse market, the USA.
The effect of this negligence is that we will not be able to see educated buyers and breeders.
Uneducated buyers and breeders are easy targets for the dealers and breeders of mediocre Tekes, especially as these horses are cheap and easy to get hold of.

18. Jessica 05/03/2007 11:19:18

Heather, written records and studbook was set up for this breed by
Russian scientists and Turkmen breeders in the beginning of the 20th century. Those records were in many cases based on the oral record keeping of the Tekes that are as old or older than the Arab tradition.
The written Teke studbook is therefore younger than many European studbooks.

19. Jessica05/03/2007 11:24:24

Carolyn, I think it is great to have you studying at the breed's history with fresh, unbiased eyes. I think it is great also that we will have a westerner presenting these facts here in the west. It's great to read what you say.
I agree with you that the Nisean type of horse is more stocky than the modern Teke, but I have seen a distinct type in this breed that must like you say at least bear more resemblance to the Nisean type, maybe due to more influence of that blood.
Would you say that there are other modern breeds that more manifest the Nisean type?

20. Jessica05/03/2007 11:29:01

Heather, I agree with you that the modern Teke is a mix of elegant and massive horses, coarse horses have not been used in this breed.
This is an important breeding strategy for this breed, to make sure that there is access to elegant and massive horses for breeding.
We cannot loose the massive and breed to small and elegant horses to eachother for to many generations.

21. Jessica05/03/2007 11:36:43

Nathalie, at the time for the creation of the Russian studbook for the Tekes, the horses had suffered from the Geop Teke battle when a lot of horses were killed and also when the alamans became forbidden for the Teke tribe, they had no longer the means to keep high maintenance animals like the Tekes, the Russian documentation is clear about the fact that many of the horses at that time were undernourished and as soon as a state stud was set up in Turkmenistan were the Tekes were fed the size increased.
The variation in height of the horses you mention is probably both genetic and due to the environment.
I do not think that the Teke breed was ever homogene when it came to size, there must always have been a variation of size.
However, the Tekes have always been mentioned as taller than the Arabs, therefore I think that the Tekes should never be of pony size, below 14.3 h (150 cm).

22. Carolyn05/03/2007 12:28:21

Does anyone know if scientists/archaeologists have carried out any DNA testing on the Pazyryk horses to compare with Teke DNA? It would be very useful if they did!

23. laurence Bougault05/04/2007 02:01:02
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

I found that: <a href="http://www.competitivehorse.com/Iraq/Nisean.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.competitivehorse.com/Iraq/Nisean.htm</a><br> Could you explain me from were come that expression "Nisean type", i mean, were do you read they should be like this? <br>About DNA, the answer i found is that they do test DNA on Gonur-Depe on 6000 horses found in the grabs. What archeologist think today is that horses domestication starts in Middle East and not in Central Asia. (A. Hyland). The results of the DNA test are : "the specific genes to those horses developped from "6 domestication centers without evidence that eurasian stappas are the first center of domestication". You can read about this HYLAND (A.) The horse in the ancient world, Pheonix Mill, Gloucestershire, 2003.<br>

24. Ingrid05/04/2007 06:39:31

I have a offspring after Singapour, Saad and I wonder where you folks would place him? He is 161cm and you can check him out on this link
http://vip.hestemarked.no/galleri.asp?ID=8610&galleri=show&side=4

25. Maria05/04/2007 07:33:16

Laurence, the research by A.Hyland is very influenced by the British Arab tradition, I think there are scientist who will disagree with the assertion that domestication of horse began in the Middle East rather than Cantral Asia

26. Carolyn05/04/2007 09:44:04

Ann Hyland has produced some important and useful work but she is not a trained archaeologist or ancient historian and thus there are some errors/faults within her books. She is also very arab-centric which can bpose certain problems. Most archaeologists in the field do not dispute the fact that the horse was first domesticated in central Asia, however, mounted warfare in its true sense began in the Near East.

27. laurence Bougault05/04/2007 09:50:02
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Maria,
I agree with you. The think is nothing is sure in archeological work. It's just hypothesis. Pazyryk grabs are far from Turkmenistan i think. And Iran much closer. At the moment recent archeological missions found lost of new material. Littauer, Crowell and the results of the recent franco-turkmen work on Gonur Depe confirm a new hypothesis again the ancient one. Sarianidi published the more recent book on the subject. Scientist always desagree one with eachother. I'll try to get information from Olivier Lecomte and François Bridey about the mesurements of the horses bones they found. Maybe it will learn us something. Or not!

28. Carolyn05/04/2007 10:50:46

Laurence,

If you are able to find any names of books/articles with bone measurments and such in it- recent archaeological work, It would be a huge help to me. Does not matter what language they are in.

29. Jessica05/04/2007 12:34:11

Carolyn,
As far as I know the Pazyryk horses are in the State Hermitage Museum in St Petersburg, I know that some years ago Dr Gus Cothran was interested in obtaining material from there to collect DNA from the Teke type horses. To my knowledge he never contacted the
museum. The museum has a nice web site were you actually can view some of the artifacts http://hermitagemuseum.org
They might have become less Soviet minded now, maybe you should try to contact them? The have plenty of Scythian artifacts as well.

30. Carolyn05/04/2007 12:46:22

Yes, all of the Pazyryk finds are at the State Hermitage. I've thought about contacting them, so perhaps I will do so. My plan is to visit the museum next summer. I would love to see those horses, it would be an invaluable opportunity.