read more about how they got from Germany to Doha, Quatar here http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200611/26/eng20061126_325235.html. Does anyone, know if there were any Tekes involved and if the Kazakh team is safely back in Germany?

1. Blanca02/07/2007 03:35:43

Yes, they're all safely back home. They're not based in Germany, but in Almaty.

The only teke in the team -a hanno-teke, the old GP Volan- was there.

I think I have already mentioned that there was other pureblood teke in the team, Matador, a prix st George horse. Unfortunately, he got the road sickness on the way from Kazakhstan to Europe and died in Germany.

2. Leonid02/07/2007 05:04:05
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

I an sorry, he is not hanno-teke, it is impossible. He is teko-hannover, or simple hannover, becouse tekes are improver of hannover breed.

3. Blanca02/07/2007 09:43:01

He's father is a hannoverian and his mother a teke.

Leonid, interesting to learn that the teke is an imporver of the hannos. In which sense?

4. Leonid02/07/2007 09:55:25
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

It is not important who is mother or Father. Blood of teke is higher and this mixt can not be teke in the base. So, in the base hannover but not teke.
about your question. Hannover breed is not origginal and names by name of reggion of breeding. Without control of blood. Most importent to get license for breeding.

5. Blanca02/07/2007 11:12:04

Yes, the teke is a purebred while the hannoverian is a warmblood.

But talking about improvement, what a teke could give to a hannoverian: more beauty, better performance, temper?

I would also like to read the opinions of people like Hans Jurg

6. Leonid02/07/2007 11:30:21
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Main - nobility!!!

7. Jessica02/07/2007 15:16:53

Blanca, I guess even if the Kazakh Team wasn't based in Germany they must have travelled from Germany after their show season in Europe to Quatar and then safely back to Almaty?
Do you know the pedigrees of Matador and Volan?

8. Jessica02/07/2007 15:33:12

The Teke studbook is not approved by the Hannoverian studbook, nor by the World Sport Horse Breeding Association. Teke-Hannoverian is a cross. Even if the Hannoverian is a warmblood they have rules for what horses that can be inscribed into the main studbook. If you look at it from the Teke stud book view it will be considered a Teke partbred, from the Hannoverian studbook point of view I am not sure under what circumstances you could get it registered with their studbook, it has to do with the pedigree and the results of inspection (not the be compared with the Teke inspections).
Today the Hannoverian studbook presents the best sport horses in the world this is because they have very high standards for their studbook, no stallion from another, not approved breed, will be used for the sole purpose of nobility, it will be for certain traits that need continuous improvement such as workability, rideability, gaits, jumping ability, soundness etc. I personally think that the Tekes that could be of interest will be those that have a proven performance lineage combined with sought after traits like long legs, high set and well carried neck, strong top line, dressage movements or show jumping ability combined with the "can do" mentality of the typical Tekes. Still they are of a hughe disadvantage due to the lack of reliable breed statistics accessible to the international sport horse breeders as well as a professional organisation that give the breed higher standards internationally.

9. Hans-Jurg Buss02/08/2007 09:25:16

Blanca, thank you for asking for my opinion. But I do not consider me an expert on this issue. Jessica already mentioned the most important points. Generally spoken, if you do not consider the Teke as an improver for Hannoverians or other warmbloods it would not make any sense to breed a Teke/Hanno or any other Teke/warmblood cross. But up to now these crosses are not made in a systematic way. And there is just not enough empirical evidence of how Tekes may improve or deteriorate a specific warmblood breed of todays standard. When we speak of improvement, normally we intend the use of a stallion from another breed covering a mare of the breed to be "improved". In the case you mentioned it is the other way round. The inidividual result may be a very promising horse, but I guess of no importance for the development of either the Teke as well the Hannoverian breed.

10. Blanca02/08/2007 12:48:59

Thanks, Hans Jurg. I'm interested in your opinion because you are a teke breeder who also trains for sports and who, I suppose, has been in contact with European warmbloods before, so you know both worlds.

I don't think Volan is the product of an attempt to improve the hannoverians or the tekes. I think the iintention was rather to produce a good dressage horse with what they had in Lugovskoi at that time -a few hannos and a large number of teke mares-...

Jessica, Matador(1998) was by Argus (by Alagir) out of Maleya.

As for Volan, I need to check because I'm not at home, but I recall that his mother was, I think, Akbella (by Akbelek???).

As for the traits you were mentioning, and always related to what a teke can give to a hannoverian, I have been pondering what you said and I think that:

Workability : YES, YES, YES

Rideability YES, YES. However, let's not forget that the teke is a sensitive horse who can be spoiled by a harsh rider used to ride warmbloods. Is the teke a horse for everybody? Am I exaggerating this trait??

Gaits: YES! I love the teke gaits, they are so comfortable!. But they're not gaits for dressage. It's not that they are not beautiful, or balanced, or harmonious…it's simply that they are too different from the commonly known and accepted warmblood gaits and they will not be taken seriously by a judge…

Jumping ability: hummm, even if a teke can perfectly jump (he can do anything!) and having seen some exceptions, I wouldn't say is a jumper, at least at the same level of other breeds who are jumping breeds.

Soundness: Yes. But this any breed where there is a good selection will make it sure.

Strong top line: actually, one of the things western sportsmen complain about the teke is their too long back

dressage movements: see above

show jumping ability: see above

"can do" mentality of the typical Tekes; YES, YES,. YES!!

A couple of very teke traits I want to consider separately:

Long legs: Yes,
High set and well carried neck: Yes

These two traits make a horse definitely more beautiful, but, I ask, since I'm not so experienced: do they make it more performing than a hannoverian?

So it seems that, at the end, the most important thing that a teke could give a hannoverian is his excelent temper, his sensitivity, his wish to please his rider, his will to do or go where his rider will ask...actually, isn't that the nobility Leonid was talking about?

I would add that IMHO, the teke could give the hannos and the other European warmbloods his elegance, his lightness. This is purely esthetic, but there is now the trend of having smaller and lighter horses instead of the tanks which were fashionable some years ago...

11. Laurence Bougault02/13/2007 08:57:44
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Hello tekes lovers
I don't know where to write what i have to write, i think it's unusual...
I did in 2001 3300 km alone in South East Africa with 2 basuto ponies.
I want to do something similar from Azerbaïdjan to France with tekes.
Has anybody adresses from AT breeders there , english or french speaker would be great!!
I think Azerbaïdjan because Turkmenistan is impossible and Daghestan seems to be very insecure at the moment... as well as the rest of Caucase.
Anyway, any information would be great.
I think it isn't enough to love type and beauty, what i love in a horse is what he can do. That trip is probably the kind of trips the first turkmen horses did in very ancient time. I think Kikkuli wasn't in mesopotamia when he wrote the first horse treaty of the history, but somewhere around Caspian sea. Very old civilisations used the horse to go from a point to another, as a vehicule and a friend, so i do. Competition is a funny modern thing to me... but travel with horses is the most fantastic experience of live i know and i want to try with tekes. I think nothing good about Alexandra Tolstoï who wasn't prepared to do it. She did a bad publicity to AT. I want to try to do it propely...
And sorry for my approximative english!
Laura

12. Jessica02/13/2007 12:11:41

Laurence,
Welcome to my blog. What an accomplishment to trek that long a distance on basuto ponies! I am not surprised that the true long distance riders feel attracted to the Teke breed!
There are Teke breeders in Azerbadjan, I'll get back with info on them as soon as possible. You might also want to consider Stavropol stud near Mineralnie Vody in northern Caucasus, they do have many fine Tekes.
I am curious on how you plan to select and prepare the horse(s) for the ride and what will happen to them when you arrive in France? What an adventure!

13. Blanca02/13/2007 12:18:10

Hi Laurence,

You can find Azeri breeders in the list of breeders in Maak.ru . I am afraid that it will be difficult to find people there who speak English, not to say French.

14. Leonid02/13/2007 13:25:19
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Dear Laurence Bougault, how are you going go from Azerbayjan to France? Not through Daghestan? May be better repeate the way of mr. Napoleone from Moscow to Paris?

15. maria02/13/2007 13:58:09

Laurence, the breed officials in Russia gave me a phone number of the president of the Equestrian Club in Baku for you, let me know if you want me to phone - I am not sure if you speak Russian or Azeri. I am curious why you chose Azerbaidjan over, say, Uzbekistan or Kazakhstan or even Southern Russia. MAAK officials also suggested you could do it from Kalmykia which has a well-known AT farm. But I don't think it is impossible, and apparently there are quite a few AT in Baku and they are currently preparing for the opening of the new hippodrome. I am sure you can establish good contact with them.

16. hmahoney02/13/2007 14:21:51

Okay, I apologize for going a little off tangent, but having read Laurence's blip on the website link provided, it raised an interesting historical question for me, that I hoping some of you history buffs (ahem, Jessica), might be informed about.

Laurence's weblink had some info about the "Golden Horse of Nissa." I had never heard AT's referred to by that name. It was interesting to me, since I'm familiar with the Treaty of Nissa, but also was thinking about that fact that Caltanissetta, Sicily (where my mother's family is from), used to be called Nissa - in fact native Sicilians still call people from Caltanissetta "Nisseni."

Anyhow, where does "Golden Horse of Nissa" come from?? For those of you who don't know me so well, I am a little obsessive about obscure historical fact, and waste quite a lot of time exploring all these connections... it's just something I love.

Thanks to anyone with some insight into this intriguing reference.

Heather Mahoney

17. Leonid02/13/2007 14:45:50
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Read please:
http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/e46af8202ce8446e8525720a00624dd9/ddb6ace9e388c1b78525721500454701?OpenDocument

18. Heather Mahoney02/13/2007 14:57:13

Leonid,
много спасибо!!! That is a wonderful treasure-trove of historical information. Much appreciated.
Heather

19. Leonid02/14/2007 02:01:03
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Con piacere.

20. laurence bougault02/14/2007 09:39:26
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Hello Jessica, Leonid and everybody
I'm not coming for the first time Jessica, i came last year to present my AT...
Anyway.
Leonid, I DON'T want to cross Daghestan at the moment!! My way could be : Azerbaïdjan-Iran,-Turkey-Greece-Italy-France.
The Moscow-Paris has been done often, last time by my friend Jean-Louis Gouraud that organize the last trip in France for Schamborant and did a lot to promote the breed in France. If their is no possibility with the way i want to do, the Moscow Paris could be an option! But not like Napoleon (the way back was horrible, isn't it?)
I hope to talk with some of you at the AT world championship end of August.
Jessica, about the choice and training i could talk a lot but my english is difficult. I will just say what i want:
black feet (sorry leonid!)
good walk quality (the right feet on one line, the left feet on one line).
good back : stronger as possible, not to long, not to short
a horse not too big, because they are not so strong, and not too short, because they are slow.
For the training, i keep a few things for me... But if you want to go far, start very slowly...
OK, i stop because it's not raining anymore, and not night yet, so i'm going for a ride with Abdoula...

21. Laurence Bougault02/15/2007 04:48:01
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Mahoney,
Herodote in his histories talk about that Nissa located in actual Turkmenistan. He is the first and only one in that period. The problem for archeologists now is to know were it is exactly. Some of them but not all think that it is the same place as Merv. What he says is the horses from Nissa are very tall compare to other horses in the world. I think there is two reason : some of the tribes in Turkmenistan start to breed very long time ago. Their relation with the horses are very close and the feed the horses with high protein food (as the well known eggs for exemple). The also start very early to select the breeders. They stop to let do the nature very long time ago and so influence the phenotype so modify the genotype of their horses. So facts explain two things : the physical qualities of the horses, and the good temper they have. I think the old turkmen give a religious signification to the horses, they also are one of the only ancient people that give a grab to their horses till now.

22. Heather02/15/2007 08:38:08

Il vostro italiano ■ molto buono!

23. Jessica02/15/2007 12:21:29

Laurence, I did not pay attention, you have been here before, I apologize for not noticing.
I agree to 100% with you that the Teke is a completely man made breed that developed its unique type and traits from selection and care from man, being the oldest cultivated breed in the world.
We have the maternal aunt to Abdoula, Prizma, she is three years old and is now in kindergarten training.

24. Laurence Bougault02/15/2007 12:36:15
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Hi Jessica,
No problem, they are so many people talking here! Yes, i know there is some connection between us with Pantera. Piremli is now near Angers. She is a very strange quite girl, but nobody use her till now. She had a very nice girl from Arab last year. I come back from a ride with Abdoula and really i like his temper and gallop. That's a clever sweat boy. I don't want to become a big breeder. i just try to organize things in the way i want them. I like old methods from the great horse men (like Beudant or Oliveira) and a like natural way of life for my horses. It's a kind of mix. But what i prefer is to travel with them, because you become really a friend one for each other, you spend ALL the time, even at night, with the horses, and it's something very special.
I'm not coming often on the blog, i'm too busy most of the time but i like the job of selection you do and find it unusual compare to what have seen in France where they are no specialist of the AT and too many people that doesn't know enough about horses and horse culture, wich is a pity when you have AT!
i'm still looking for addresses in Azerbaïdjan...
Laura

25. Leonid02/15/2007 12:55:48
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

What means Natural way? So, if there is Natural way, must be another Unnatural?

26. Heather02/15/2007 13:05:33

Leonid,
It sounds a little bit like you a baiting here... of course there is a natural way vs. unnatural way to keep horses. "Natural" being more in keeping with their evolutionary tendencies to be outside and moving in a herd environment. Of course Laurence can define this better for you.

27. Leonid02/15/2007 13:24:17
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Razza Akhalteke e razza fatomano. And if we don't keep this horses they will die.

28. Heather02/16/2007 08:44:18

Don't make fun... here where I live small children have races on the shearlings at festivals for fun ... it can be very entertaining. I'm not arguing that they need care, just that some horses are kept in a way that is congruent with their nature - outside and moving - versus being kept in a stall all the time or even most of the time. To an endurance rider, it is critical that your horse has plenty of outside time, as the constant movement strengthens their skeleto-muscular system, and you have develop a horse with the ability to sustain the stresses of long distance work. That's all Laurence meant, I think.

29. Jessica 02/16/2007 11:15:56

It's interesting to see how quickly man affects animals, the Przewalski horse or Takh, was first captured in the wild 1899 and already in 1980, when the first Takh was released from a zoo to live in a semi- reservate the Takhs had been heavily affected by having been in captivity and they had to be bred and kept in semi-reservates to be adjusted to a life in the wild again. The keeping on high level proteins in small enclosures all year round as well as the human selection had only in less than 100 years changed the Takh to become unfit to survive in its natural habitat.
So like Leonid said, if we begin feed and select we will have to continue this tradition in order for the breed to survive.
BTW one interesting similarity between the Teke and the Takh is that the Takhs have no forelock and many Tekes lack forelock. The Tekes as far as I know does not shed their mane though, but some have rat tail like the Takh.
However, we can make life less stressful for the horse by giving it a social life, and possibility to move and excercise.
Today we know that horses that are on a balanced diet, socialise and move as much as possible stay much sounder than horses deprived of those fundamental needs. Laurence is right about the total bonding between horse and human must be experienced when you spend day and night together, socialising, moving and eating.

30. Laurence Bougault02/16/2007 13:13:45
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Ok Leonid, we all agree, Teke are connected with human since a long time. But Heather told what I mean, i've nothing more to say!
Concerning how quickly an animal change with domestication, it's true for all of them, they all (like wolfs, bars...) loose a gene.
When Leonid say AT will die, i disagree. They will just change. I saw a few of them in Turkmenistan last time, back to the wildlife after the 1990's. They survive very well, except the army boys shoot them! But for sure they don't look like show AT!
I wanted to do photos, but when you are yourself on a stallion, it's quite a problem!
Anyway, i don't think humans are a necessity for life (isn't it the contra?)
Laura

31. Leonid02/16/2007 13:30:42
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

May be this horses were AT, but now they are not. Natural selection is good for nature, but not for human.

32. Heather02/16/2007 14:44:57

Leonid,
Your last comment opens an exceptionally intriguing debate, which I predict could be a challenge to answer...
If "natural selection" is employed we know that horses with the hardiest traits survive, and yet you say this is not good for humans... They loose refinement, yes, but this is because lovely aesthetics do not make a "strong" horse. All this lends itself to Jessica's and Maria'a earlier topic about the functional traits we want to see improved in AT's vs. their position as living art. Anyone care to offer their perspectives on this?? Should be interesting!

33. Leonid02/16/2007 15:08:10
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Why did you decide that humans need traits survive in natural terms? AT became so exelent becouse had super art breeding. And compare them with other herd breeds, wich more closer to nature. The next point Thoroughbred.

34. Jessica02/17/2007 08:58:33

With Tekes we do not breed for hardy survival traits but for the speed, athletism, beauty and absolute compatibility with humans.
These horses were selected to live were close to their masters and their families, therefore they tend to be very people friendly, a unique trait for desert bred hotbloods. To let such horses out to fend for themselves is cruel and a waste of this breed.
If you take a horse that has the ability to survive on low protein forage, fight the wolves and other enemies like humans they would be so much harder to work with and even come close to, this type of hardiness is not wanted in a horse that is supposed to work for people.
The herd bred breeds like Mongol ponies and Icelandic horse for example do not bond with humans like the Tekes do, they will always prefer the herd from you and they are also treated differently, they are kept in herds, ridden hard for a few years then let out in the herd again or cooked for food.
The Teke stays with his master forever and is given the best care. The Teke will give back total devotion and his last breath for his master. Those traits have been selected for by humans not by adaption to nature.
I do not know what good general hardiness is for the modern horse that lives close to humans in restriced areas, I would say that breeds like Arabians and Tekes fare better in close to humans situations than the hardy herd bred horses like Icelandic etc.

35. Darya02/17/2007 11:13:11
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Tekes definitely love human contact and bond very well with their owner. Mine can never have too much of it and I've never seen a horse enjoy it so much. I think it is one of the most important traits in the breed which one can enjoy every day no matter what they do with their Teke. It might not mean much to the "outsiders" to this relationship, but to me standing in the doorway of my stallions stable with his soft muzzle next to my face, head on my sholder, both looking into the distance, relaxing with a sigh.. or seeing my mare "melt" as I touch her - all that is one of the best things about the whole horse ownership experience.
I see how that would not help in the survival game of nature though..

36. Leonid02/17/2007 15:42:29
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Akhalteke horses can not be natural. They are soldiers of humans. When somebody says that he is natural horsemanshiper I ask myself: "Who is I? Not natural? Who was Shamborount? and so on".

37. Blanca02/19/2007 07:20:40

With the natural horsemanship and other niceties we have a bunch of people getting rich selling to unexperienced riders/owners methods and philosophies which are based in the common sense.

But I must say that sometimes, and specially for those people who think they are very experienced, it is good to be reminded what is common sense, specially if it brings less stress and violence for the horse.

Talking about methods, I was reading yesterday in Eurodressage an article on E. Petushkova. I was very much surprised when she said that Filatov was very cruel with the horses, and that at the end of his life, nobody wanted him. That broke my image based in the legend of Filatov being almost a "AT whisperer" they tried to sell me in Kazakhstan. This was reinforced by Monsieur Chambry and his story of Filatov, Absent and the "Russian caress".

Other interesting thing I read was that Petushkova was preparing a son of Absent, Abakan, for the Olimpic games, but the stallion died a few weeks before the event. Somewhere else I read that Abakan and Petushkova became Soviet Champions in dressage. Can anyone confirm this? If that■s true, Absent is not the only AT champion at National Soviet level with serious international vocation.

Petushkova said that the best horse for dressage is the trahkener while Germans prefer their WB because their size is more suitable for them while TK fit better for Russians. Curious, isn■t it?

I better leave you the link to the article

http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/P/Petushkova,%20Elena/World%20Dressage%20Champion.html

38. Heather02/19/2007 09:43:49

We've taken a tangent to the debate on the commercial concept of "natural horsemanship" which is fine, but not what I meant. I just didn't want anyone thinking I was promoting those philosophies. Really, the point I was instigating was Leonid's questionning of Laura's "naturally" kept horses. Keeping horses naturally as I was referring to in my post above does not precluse intense human contact that is so important to the character of the Akhal-Teke breed. I think you really can have the best of both worlds.

39. laurence bougault02/24/2007 03:09:55
Homepage: http://www.cheval-akhal-teke.com

Well, I agree with Heather. I saw to many stupid thoroughbred because they grow up alone, without the erd. The turkmen way to breed horses is a good compromise between nature and culture.
And i have nothing to do with "natural horsemen". You can change nature, and help. But if you change it too much, you just invent useless horses.
I like the Filatov story. Just confirm my opinion : nothing sympathic in competition except the result! It's true for men too.