let's continue this discussion under this thread.

1. Hans-Jurg Buss01/10/2007 19:19:35

That is the first issue there I must admit: hey, I just do not know what is right! I refer to my posting in the other thread and to the posting of Maria. Besides the question of practical control of approval mechanism, why should it theoretically be wrong to try to eliminate "untypey" horses or for me more important horses with genetical defects from studbook? I would concentrate on genetical defects, not type or measurments or conformation. Can you in TB or Arab studbook really inscribe horses with severe defects, just because you have made offsprings, which probably have the same defects? Is that good for the breed?

2. shael01/11/2007 03:40:32
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

There are defects or not, must be only one criteria - purity. Determination of defects is another story.

3. Robert van Driel01/11/2007 04:09:58

Hello everyone,

My name is Robert van Driel from The Netherlands and I am the proud owner of an Akhal Teke Mare since November 2005.

To add to this interesting discussion; I think that all pure bred horses should be registered, but maybe not all of them should be recorded as approved breeding stock. In the Netherlands we have seen in several dog breeds that pure bred dogs are allowed as breeding stock because they have the right papers although they suffer from hereditary illnesses like hip problems or even eyes falling out of the socket. In the Dutch Welsh A pony breed, value is being placed upon small ears and large round eyes, but not at all on sports ability. In the Welsh circles it is even said that if a pony is not good enough for the show, it is by definition a sports pony…..

In the very successful Dutch KWPN sport horse breed however, stallions are only approved as breeding stallions after a long period of use by the breeding organization, which tests the horses on character and sports abilities. Employees of this organization tests and grades the horses.

Because of the small size of the population of Akhal Tekes and because they are not really concentrated in one area, it probably is not a practical solution. I would however appreciate it if a list of Akhal Teke stallions would be available not only mentioning their grading, but also with other characteristics of the breed like smooth gaits, character and colour.

Small breeders would certainly benefit from this. Naturally, all Akhal Teke stallions should be made available by allowing artificial insemination within the breed.

4. Tabitha01/11/2007 04:29:55

Jessica, Don't know if this belongs in this subject or in your "warmblood"topic.

MAAK is classifying horses on their parentage also (that helped in getting my horse a low classification too). But doesn't this limit the gene pool of the breed?
Because ofcourse.. if you want your horse to be registered as Elite, which probably most breeders want then you should breed your horse out of 2 Elite parents and voil■: an Elite Akhal-Teke. No one is going to want to breed to a stallion below Elite grading anymore. And how much stallions do have Elite grading?

Now based on the other points the grading can result as lower, but having a high parentage grade certainly pushes up the classification.

If your horse's parents weren't graded by MAAK or are class I (or were class I in the old situation but have now been placed in a lower class due to the more strict grading rules) your horses automatically gets low points for this (as did mine).

But isn't it so that out of purebred moderate healthy Tekes can come purebred outstanding healthy Tekes with outstanding talents?


As long as your AT is purebred, typical, has no defects and does have sports ability (imho wished desires in an AT) then why throw it out of the stud book based on height and parentage?

5. maria01/11/2007 06:14:35

Hello Robert, Welcome to the blog! I have a connection with the Netherlands and it is good to know there are new AT owners there. Where did you get your mare? Tell us more about her. It's very interesting to hear your thoughts on KWPN. Some members of this blog have been considering for a while what the best approach would be for European AT as far as registration, approval for breeding etc is concerned. I will try to put some thoughts down later - got to do some work now

6. Jessica01/11/2007 08:27:46

Hans-Jürg, when you have an international umbrella organisation that approves national studbooks like the TB and the Arabians the international umbrella organisation will understand and respect the national laws that regulates horse breeding. This means that if purity is the criteria, any pure horse that produces will be inscribed into the studbook, but in some countries a purebred animal will not be allowed to be used for breeding due to for example defects.
A TB that by its registration is pure and thereby allowed to race in Sweden for example, might have such defects that it will not be allowed to breed in Sweden, the horse can, however breed in other countries for the studbook. The national rules will not challenge purity in breeds with closed studbooks merely the right to produce. For the AT breed in Sweden purebred animals that are elite or class I might not be allowed to breed due to defects. So when you look for a stallion for example you will always have to be aware of your national rules that will always overrule the studbook rules in the sense of the right to breed. As a buyer it might also be of interest to look at the national rules in order to look for a place where strict rules for producing sound horses are applied, this will give you an indication of the quality of the horses produced under the national rules.
For warmbloods that mostly approve each others studbooks a KWNP stallion not approved in Holland due to for example OCD findings can look for approval with another studbook and produce for that studbook and so to say "change breed". A very good producer of warmbloods can also be approved by several other studbooks. The TB and the Arabian studbooks are also approved by the warmblood studbooks but not the AT studbook.

7. Jessica01/11/2007 13:04:55

Robert, you brought up some interesting dilemmas for breeds with closed studbooks that were founded originally to conserve and improve a type that has been evolved due to a specified usage and environment. The question is how do we conserve the type but still make sure that the breed we preserve is attractive to the market?

How much changes or wide type range do we allow within the breed to make sure that the breed is improving within the frame of what characterize the breed?

Purity is the only studbook criteria for the Arabian and the TB, but purity alone is not the reason to why those breeds are some of the biggest and most popular breeds in the world today.
It is interesting though that one of them is known to be the fastest horse in the world and the other is known to be the most beautiful horse in the world.

8. Jessica01/11/2007 13:28:05

Tabitha, I think the pedigree grading is very complex to understand and interpret, as the gradings are dynamic and subject to change at any time the pedigree gradings should be equally subject to change. The fact that there are no differences made in the classification system between estimated breeding value and breeding value as well as no once-in-a-lifetime classifications make it more or less floating. If you come from a culture where classifications are made once for EBV and later continoulsy but with a system of presenting the values clear what is the EBV (constant) and BV (changing).
Example: EBV classification for stallions is B or AB. BV classifications are kassated, C, A or Elite.
If the grading system limits the genepool or not I would say depends on the frames of what is accepted within a breed.
The grading system is used to indicate what individuals should be used according to the breed standard. If the criteria for elite gradings would be narrow the effect would be lack of genetic diversity. Within our breed we work with stallion lines that are supposed to represent different traits and thereby represent breeds within the breed, the differences accepted and approved within the lines would improve the genetic diversity.

9. Hans-Jurg Buss01/11/2007 14:12:38

Jessica, to bring my question to the point: In TB and Arab "umbrella" general studbook pure horses with genetical defects will be inscribed in the general studbook as long as that is not prevented by a national regulation. In that case however, a horse may be inscribed in the studbook of another country and thus be accepted in the umbrella general studbook. Is that correct representation of actual situation?

10. Jessica01/12/2007 09:35:07

Hans-J■rg, there is no general studbook for these breeds, there are national studbooks under umbrella organisations that approve national registries and studbooks that conform with the rules. But yes, a horse that has a genetical defect that would not be approved in one country could be approved in another countries' studbook for the same breed. WAHO is the umbrella organisation for Arabians and for now I cannot remember the name of the umbrella for the TB.
Note also that different countries list different defects as genetical.

11. Robert van Driel01/13/2007 08:23:53

Hello Jessica,


First of all, I think that a horse sound be sound of mind and body. If not, then don’t breed with it even though if it is pure bred and the foals will be registered in the studbook automatically.

The Akhal Teke breed caught my attention because of a picture of the stallion Kambar with the beautiful shape and incredible colour. My own mare has the specific Akhal Teke way of moving and is very comfortable to ride. She also has this desire to please. (I must also add that I fell of her back several times and will put her in training again, but this is more due to my clumsiness)

So I think that the Akhal Teke breed has some attractive characterizations; the colour, the comfortable gait and the willingness to please. These are more or less unique to the breed and strangely enough do not appear in the structure of grading individual horses. I read that Tabitha’s horse did not even have to trot before the judges. I don’t think that this is a mistake of the judges, but it just is not part of the grading system.

I think that when it comes to “marketing” the Akhal Teke we may consider presenting an all-round performance horse with exotic colours, smooth gaits and the desire to please.

I am not very familiar yet with the Akhal Teke world, but sometimes it appears to me that too much emphasis is laid on type and grading.

12. Darya01/13/2007 09:30:07
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Hello Robert,
You made an excellent point about some of the most important traits not being considered while the grading is taking place. I don't think there is enough attention being paid to the temperament and the character of the horse, as Jessica has already pointed out before. I think that is why a lot of experienced people here encourage newcomers to look at the horse first, and may be consider gradings last, depending on what one wants to do with the horse.
Myself for example still pretty unaware of what gradings my stallion was awarded. I know he is what I was looking for and here he is in my stable. I've only recently requested for his gradings just for the record, because, as you have pointed out, a lot of people are interested in those.
What do you plan on doing with your mare?
Nice to have you on the blog,
Darya

13. Petra01/14/2007 04:01:07
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

I think the only criteria for Tekes should be purity.
Other things - it is the responsibility of every breeder. If someone wants to breed pink Tekes with green spots and crooked legs, let him. I wouldn■t be afraid of it. The major and best population is in the hands of experienced breeders in Russia and I am convinced that they wouldn■t breed such animals.
With defects - who will judge which defects is hereditary or not, serious or not serious? And you all know that many defects could be influenced e.g. by bad feeding during mare■s pregnancy or bad training or exercise management, especially young horses.
Here in Czech Republic some time ago born TB colt with crooked and shortened foreleg. Everybody told to shot him. Well, some years later he became triple winner of our famous steeplechase Velka Pardubicka and owners wanted to put him for breeding. And once more there were voices that the crooked leg could be hereditary. But they tried him and he sired horse who came 2nd in Velka Pardubicka and he was maternal sire of another legend Peruan (triple times winner of VP and 2nd in Sporting Index Steeplechase in CHeltenham). None of descendants of this horse has any problem with legs. Another story with Fakir Sulu. If we can believe to IV. Studbook, there is written, that his offspring has often weakned constitution, with mares inbred on Boinou his offspring has defects like both blind eyes, missing forelegs, parrot mouth, crooked legs, etc. But, in the hands of Shamborant, he sired Gelishikli and Fakirpelvan.
So no restrictions from Mother stud books or some organisations, but responsibility of every breeder. And support of the breeders by Studbook or some organisation like MAAK which means easy and transparent registrating process (no other Delegatkas). Breeders will get actual information, they will have possibility to learn from experts about the breed, ... I think this will help more to increase the quality of the breed if people know better what to breed and how. Specially here in Europe and U.S. there is often good will but not enough knowledge.
And my wish - introducing flat racing in Europe and US, which tests physical and mental constitution and bravery of the horse.
And last - no insemination and embryotransfer.

14. shael01/14/2007 08:55:41
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Petra, you are my sister!!!

15. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 09:05:53

Petra
"..it is the responisbility of every breeder.." that is exactly the point.

Without any rules everybody can make what he wants. That is why societies in general always have set up certain rules and laws which try to prevent inidviduals from doing just what they want. The problem with genetical defects is that they must not necessarily be evident in the immediate offspring of a horse but that they are carried forward in the genes for generations and may become suddenly manifest to the detriment of a breeder which had no idea that a certain horse within the pedigree of his stallion/broodmare had that genetical defect. If he is serious, he will not breed anymore with that broodmare/stallion. If not he will and then somebody else later will gather in the result. I tell you frankly that two of my foals have genetical defects. The stallion I gelded and the filly will surely not be bred by myself. But with complete lack of transparency it is very difficult to even trace back whether that comes from the sire or the broodmare. So what to do as a serious breeder: do not use both anymore for breeding?

16. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 09:20:58

To add: as I stated in my first posting in this thread for me I just do not what is the right answer.

And I agree with the posting of Petra (by the way Petra: I already was twice at the race track of Pardubice together with my son for the European Young Riders Eventing Championships. Incredible race track for steeple chase! One must have seen that). But it relates mostly to the past. Nowadays, with a stabilized gene pool of Tekes may be emphasis should or could be placed differently.

17. shael01/14/2007 09:26:56
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Hans-Jurg, this is difference between partbred and purebred breeding. There is only one criteria in the pure breeds - purity. If you need reglaments, look at partbred breeds. In the breeding of purity breeders must have only one aim - exelence. And this breeders have right for risk. In this breeding average level is not attractive. High level we must find at races, rings and equestrian sport. And only breeder must decide the using of concrete horse in the breeding.

18. Robert van Driel01/14/2007 10:19:32

Hello Petra,

The discussion on approving breeding animals within the Akhal Teke breed is probably purely theoretical as I agree with you that the major population of the breed is in the hands of experienced and responsible breeders. Moreover, the origin of the Akhal Teke was shaped by the people of Turkmenistan that did not even have a studbook or strict breeding rules.
However, I agree with Todd when he said in his Bek Nazar Blog; “A womb does not make a mare a broodmare, testicles don't make a stallion a sire!”

As to the artificial insemination. My opinion, as a novice in the Akhal Teke world, allowing it would significantly broaden the gene pool in countries where there are not many Akhal Teke stallions. Suppose I would like to have my mare covered by a stallion from the Czech Republic. Wouldn’t it make sense to collect the seed and send it by a standard expedition company in a cooling box to The Netherlands? If you would allow me to have my mare covered by Mingam and being opposed to insemination, I would have to drive to Humpolec in the Czech Republic, which is 989.5 km away from the place where I live in The Netherlands. With resting periods included for both me and the horse the whole trip including return would take 2 to 3 days.
I just fail to see the value of this.

19. shael01/14/2007 10:57:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Robert van Driel, I suppose Petra is more interesting to sell you the son of Mingam than a cooling box of him. If you are not to invest this breed, look your local freazians.

20. Robert van Driel01/14/2007 11:36:28

Hello Shael,

I agree to your idea. It would be a good solution. But it does not seem to be very realistic to buy a stallion if you only have one mare.

Besides, it is much nicer to be able to choose a different stallion each year. And given the practical problem of distance, artificial insemination is a good alternative.

21. Petra01/14/2007 12:31:38
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Hello Robert,
to insemination - it is the question of approach. I think that it has no place with purebred breeding. And look to Russia - why do you think, Leonid sends his mares thousands kilometres from his stud to Stavropol farm and why Mr. Klimuk sends his mares to Shakhid to Dagestan? And both of them has excellent stallions in their yards.

22. Hans-Jurg Buss01/14/2007 13:50:43

Leonid, okay, but then what about the rules of MAAK, of which the Russian AT association is part of? They have introduced grading as criteria, which is even more "subjective" than question of genetical defects. But I know your answer: forget about MAAK. And I would agree.

23. shael01/14/2007 14:20:49
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Robert van Driel, try to buy one real extra and every western breeder will come to you.

24. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/14/2007 23:25:24
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

I am going to buy a good stud from you Leonid!!

25. shael01/15/2007 03:06:37
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Wellcome!!!

26. Jessica 01/15/2007 09:18:59

Here is my suggestion on how we can have it all in this breed;

PURITY shall be the only criteria for registration AND reproduction for this breed.

The techniques for approving PURITY shall be decided by a group appointed and approved by breeders, state-of-the-art techniques shall be used, total transparency shall be assured. This is a key issue.

The LEGEND of the breed shall be maintained and marketed by a group selected and approved by the breeders. This might involve the funding and keeping track of any new research on the unique traits of the breed as well as the publication of new and old research that maintains the support the legend of the breed.

NO gradings or points or other information than year, place of birth, breeder, pedigree and offspring shall be allowed to be published in the studbook that will ONLY maintain the register and studbook with a high level of service to breeders and owners. Annual statistics must be published in media that can be accessed by as many as possible and to be open to the public. The statistics shall be published in at least one international language. The breeders shall appoint a group of auditors of the work with the keeping of the register.

The breeders of Tekes that will want to quality test their Tekes for typicalness shall work together to arrange public breed shows for purpose of quality assessment and to promote the typical traits and usages for Tekes. These shows are optional for all Tekes. Results will not be published with other bodies than the organisation that arranges the show. This activity will also results in the foundation of a group of judges that will be selected on their performance as suitable for the job. Breeders, judges and organisations that create the shows will together work out a standard of excellence for the breed that can be used to educate the public and the breeders, train new judges as well as being used in the marketing of the breed.

The breeders of Tekes that will want to quality test their Tekes for sport horse abilities for the Olympic disciplines can work out to participate in such tests with the various sport horse studbooks that have an expertise knowledge and experience to perform such tests. Results of those tests will be published by the sport horse association. This agreement is already worked out in Sweden and also from beginning this year in the USA with one sport horse association.

Sport results for Tekes that perform will be published by the organisation that arranges the sport shows.
Optimally there will be a global database created for owners to add their sport results with reference to the results published by the organisation that arranged the show.

Artificial reproductional techniques, ART, today the need for education and understanding among breeders world wide is more important than reproductional techniques.
Any decision on any of the different techniques should preceded by a thorough investigation performed by a group appointed and approved by the breeders.

27. Jessica01/15/2007 09:29:50

I have to add SOUNDNESS, stallion owners that want to publish their stallions as free from what many breed associations today consider heritable genetical defects are free to do so by participating in official quality tests for sport horses or by showing vet certficates for soundness.
As few breed organisations scan mares for genetical defects, as they do not have as much impact on the population as stallions, it is and has been the mare owners responsability to make the breeding decision. The future will tell what breeders select for soundness and not. Hopefully the breeders that repeatedly produce unsound animals will disappear from the market.

28. Hans-Jurg Buss01/15/2007 10:39:02

Jessica
Congratulations! Your proposal pretty much summarizes up and integrates all the issues we have been discussing here in different threads the last weeks. Apart from may be details I would agree completely.

29. maria01/16/2007 05:10:55

Jessica, this is a really excellent effort to pull together the many strains of thought into something that looks like a proposal that would be acceptable to most owners and breeders. It's great to see a blueprint as a result of all the blogging!

30. Petra01/16/2007 08:18:04
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Great Jessica,
only small note - no ART, but really art. Means no articial techniques and making "affordable" foals in large amount like on manufacture track, but purebred breeding (better word maybe THOROUGH bred breeding). WIth its excellence.
Because what would you prefer, "handmade" products or serial ones which are at every home?

31. Heather01/16/2007 11:58:58

Jessica,
Excellent suggestions. I think everyone can appreciate a thoughtful, intelligent and eloquent perspective on such a controversial series of issues. Believe me, it can be daunting to interested Akhal-Teke outsiders like myself.

On AI:
I have just a few questions/statements on the AI debate, which I'm certain will be ongoing. Petra, I can appreciate your metaphor to hand-made items vs. serial ones. Marketed in that way live-cover foals seem almost superior in "quality" to AI produced progeny. But here is my question to Leonid and Petra. What scientific foundation is there to question the legitimacy of AI in regards to purity or even art?? This is not embryo transfer, as we discussed before, where Leonid questions the influences of plasma transfer, although from a scientific perspective this does not influence the DNA of the foal, but only immunities which will be passed via the plasma of the mother. I understand the fear of "over-production," as Petra eloquently pointed out, but this is always inhibited monetarily, as well as by a limited book for a given stallion. Does not the stallion owner have some say in to whom they sell and ship semen?? In this way you still retain control of your "art" but have only more materials from which to choose. Or do you feel that there are not mares outside of Russia worth considering for your breeding purposes?

Food for thought and my curiousity.

Hope you enjoyed the long Martin Luther King holiday weekend, to all the US based bloggers!

Lastly, to Todd - I forgot to tell you Happy Hogmanay!!! A little belated. I should have send you and Jessica a black bun pudding. Alba go braugh agus bliain mhath!

Heather

32. shael01/16/2007 12:21:18
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Heather, this is not scientific problem, this is problem of philosophy, then market and philisophy again. I wrote this in articles on my site.

33. Heather01/16/2007 13:21:31

Leonid,
Is that article available in English? I read several of your articles a while back and enjoyed them, but some weren't translated. My Russian is less than stellar, and BabelFish's Russian is even worse! Not really, but at any rate, I could not follow the Russian articles. Please give me the name of the article in which this is discussed and if it's in English I will be happy to read your opinions there.
Thanks!
Heather

34. shael01/16/2007 13:41:43
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Articles/4BB42B0C3E7B10F985257215006D4637
http://www.shael-teke.com/web/shael.nsf/Articles/F0D05500AFFE732A85257215006E6F11

35. Heather01/16/2007 15:37:29

Leonid and Alexander,
You have my admiration for well written and weell thought out articles that hit the point and devliver your point of view in a concise and persuasive manner. Here are my questions. How does AI lead to the dramatic narrowing of the gene pool if the stallion is bred on a limited book? You do not have to flood the market with semen from one horse if you choose to limit how many times fresh or frozen semen will be made available to outside mares each season. For instance, I cannot speak for Jessica and Todd, but assume that there was a Russian stallion that you and they both agreed might be a wonderful match for the Osman daughters... Would allowing them to import semen suddenly mean that you must make it available to anyone or everyone that requests it? If I understand correctly, the stallion owner can be as selective as the mare owner, no? These are just hypothetical questions, of course. I am not a breeder, nor am I likely to ever be, but I appreciate your answers and views on these interesting questions.
Heather

36. Jessica01/16/2007 15:51:28

Thank you all for the positive comments to the summary of a suggestion for a common platform to work from to create a better future for this breed. These suggestion had not been able to come up with without everyones participation in this Teke ThinkTank we have created here.

I think at this point those of us who want to join the revolution and try to create a good future for this breed will have to make up our minds on to what extent we are prepared to compromise in order to create a modern, open, democratic organisation for this breed.

It is very difficult to merge different horse cultures, but if we really want I am sure that many of us have the strong drive to create something fantastic.

37. Jessica01/16/2007 16:12:43

The ART issue can be and shall be thoroughly discussed. There are several approaches population genetics, market value, breeders economy, breed development and the maintenance of the legend.

One suggestion is to benchmark the arguments for and against with the two breeds that most often are used in the discussions, the TB and the Arabian breed. How does the population genetics, market value, breeder's economy, breed development and the maintenance of the legend been affected by the Yes and No to ART.

How is the Teke breed being affected by the unregulated use of ART?

38. Jessica01/16/2007 16:53:11

Petra, I cannot say that I would see the use of AI as a tool for massproduction. AI is far to expensive for someone who wants to massproduce. If in the word massproduction is to produce the most to the lowest cost.
Buying a stallion if you have more than one mare is almost always cheaper than using AI. Many Teke stallions are cheap.
I have seen Teke mass production and there was nor AI, neither selection involved, there was the semi wild stallion let loose in the herd of mares and see what you get next year. That's natural, that's cheap. Is it handmade?
I think we must make a difference between the selection and the production. The selectionist (with the goal to improve) and the producer (with the goal to meet the massmarket).
I think it is a bigger chance that you see the selectionist use AI than the producer.
We will have always have both in the Teke breed. The best way in my opinion to support the selectionists - the artists- in this breed is to arrange breed shows. Or maybe better call them art exhibitions.

39. Maria01/16/2007 17:06:10

I didn't realise until recently that Arabian studbooks are OK with AI. A few months ago, a couple of endurance riders came to see Mualim and went very enthusiastic about him. But when I saw them at Xmas, they were preparing to AI their 17-year-old mare with the semen of a dead Arab stallion. The mare is a fairly big-time winner, so what does it tell us? That they know better than to choose an unproven AT stallion for their valuable mare Jessica, you expressed surprised at the time, so now you and I can both see, they are not amateurs after all! sorry to go off the topic...

40. Hans-Jurg Buss01/16/2007 17:43:22

The question of whether AI should be accepted in Teke breed or not and if yes to what degree (from fresh semen over frozen semen to embryo transfer up to - horrible - cloning) can not be answered by anybody in an "objective" way. It has philosophical, marketing, financial and genetical aspects about those one can discuss with no end. On this issue one must be prepared to compromise and accept others opinions. But of course for the breed there must be a generally accepted rule, whatever it is.

41. Darya01/17/2007 05:22:48
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica,
Good point that AI is expensive. Especially frozen. I've looked up out of curiosity on the pricing to get the frozen semen collected from a stallion and I can assure you that it is pretty possible to buy another Teke stallion for that price. I doubt I can sell a foal for that much at this point in UK.

42. Robert van Driel01/17/2007 07:37:58

Hello Jessica,

You were very right when you started this discussion, by saying that it was a really interesting discussion. Spot on!

I support your idea of a global database. I have heard that you operated a database years ago. I have not seen this but I do know of the existence of the following database;

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/santana50

If you activate this you will see the pedigree of my Akhal Teke mare. Some photo’s are attached and it is possible – if you pay a fee – to generate all kind of reports for example on inbreeding. Wouldn’t it be nice if MAAK – or any other organization – had such an online system whereby the Studbooks that are now prepared once every 5 years or so can than be produced by pressing “ENTER”? I agree with Jessica’s thoughts to publish sports results in such a database.

Because of the articles that Leonid showed us I now realize that there is more than just one argument against Artificial Insemination. However as I have experienced myself and as some others have already pointed out, Artificial Insemination is very expensive. The costs prohibits a large scale use of the reproduction technique. Using AI will probably lead to the increased use of some stallions, but the impact on the whole breed will probably be not very significant.

But I must admit that too me as a very small scale breeder the discussion is very interesting but very academic.

43. Heather01/17/2007 09:39:09

Discussions like these are why I enjoy coming back to the blog again and again.
Like Robert said, Leonid's articles present an interesting perspective that promote the philosophical and cultural views on breeding, and make a reasonable argument for the intricate involvement of the breeder int he selection, breeding and raising of Akhal-Tekes. However, like Jessica pointed out, live cover does not always make a horse "handmade", nor does it prevent massproduction, as in the case of the heated debates we recently had over a particular breeder that would also be called an artist, but is actually one of the worst massproducers I've "dealt" with (via his sickly horses).

So where does this leave AI? Like we've said, AI is very cost prohibitive, and does not really run the risk of flooding the market. Also, no one has answered on offering semen to a limited book of mares... I know this is done with some Arab stallions. Is this not reasonable for AT's as well? If I'm mistaken somewhere, DO let me know, as again - I'm not a breeder. Also, if the organisation proposed by Jessica decided to accept AI, it would not require Russian breeders to automatically make their stallion available for semen collection, would it? Nor do they have the obligation to purchase or admire a horse produced through AI. But as Leonid is fond of saying, "just look at the horse." That is enough to determine if the outcome is art or mediocrity.

From what I've read so far I cannot find that there is a strong enough argument against AI - or indication that it could cause substantial harm to the market - to say it should be outlawed by a fledgling organisation. Of course, there is lots of debate to continue before that decision takes place, and will undoubtedly be between more important people than myself!

Cheers,
Heather

44. Robert van Driel01/17/2007 09:41:00

This pedigree database is so easily adjustable as, at least, one of you noticed that the parents of Santana changes just about every minute.

So let's add to the proposal that an official organization should lock the recored once it is determined that the data is correct....

45. Jessica01/17/2007 09:55:26

Robert, according to the link to the studbook database your mare is not a Teke. This is to illustrate the weakness with a studbook database that can be edited by anyone. I apologise for editing your horse I just wanted to give an example to why such databases are really not reliable.
Todd designed a studbook database in Lotus Notes in 1997 and has himself entered registered purebred Teke since then, except for a few from the 10th studbook that are being entered continously. This database was offered as an online version for free use during some years.
We had to close the online studbook from public use for several reasons, Todd originally built it for our own use in studying the breed. Todd has over the years added info such as known soundness issues etc that we find usable for our own breeding program. Todd has not yet added the algorithm for counting inbreeding. Breeding purebreds means that you really have to know your pedigrees!
The small scale breeders, like me and Todd, shall and must have a saying within the breed. How many Teke breeders register more than 20 purebred foals annually outside Russia?
I would guess that the western population of Tekes is to 95% being bred and maintained by small scale breeders. Maybe that to is the reason to the lack of interest from MAAK/VNIIK.
Another reason for breeders to unite.

46. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 10:02:29

Maria, according to my knowledege each national studbook for Arabian Horses establishes by itself whether for this particualr studbook AI and/or Embryo Transfer is allowed or not. In some countries it is allowed, in others not. That reflects the different "philosophical" and "financial" approach to this issue in each country.

47. Heather01/17/2007 10:51:04

Jessica,
I did not know that about the Arabian stud book, but it is helpful within the context of our discussion. Is this something you think might be applicable to AT's??

48. Petra01/17/2007 12:21:14
Homepage: http://www.akhal.cz

Hello Jessica,
I agree that selection should be the first thing which is took into consideration. And I know that there are many breeders, unfortunately also here in Czech Republic, where selection is made by stallions escaping from their paddocks or who are left semi-wild in the herd of mares.
I am just afraid that in not far future there could be situation that when you come to studfarms to choose your dream stallions, there will be none. Just spermbank. And daughters and grandaughters of Pampa, Azgul, Pudok Khan, Oprava, Opera, ..... will have several foals each year from embryotransfer. It is just question of time, when ART will be cheaper (e.g. here in Czech Republic one dose of frozen sperm exportable around EU costs around 25 euros, succesful embryotransfer around 1500 euros). And as the generation period is quite long with horses, it could be late to cope with consequences of ART retro-actively. And as the future is made by us at present, the problems of ART should be very carefully treated.
And of course, it is a question of philisophy as Leonid mentioned.

49. maria01/17/2007 13:16:13

I don't think AI should be the "sticking point" of this excellent initiative. Views such as Petra's paint an honest picture, though a negative one, and it is important that such views are heard. I am sure we can continue to discuss it but more than anything, I am looking to the next stage in this exciting development!

50. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 16:02:31

As I said Maria, we can continue to discuss this issue of AI or ART forever. Just because approaches are so different we must look for a practical solution which is widely accepted, a real compromise. To add just a last point: If you forbid AI it is nearly impossible to control whether "cooled down" fresh semen or frozen semen has been shipped let's say from North Germany to South of France instead of shipping the mare from South to North to the stallion..... No one can control that. And it is always problematic to establish rules which can not be controled. The only thing you can really control is whether frozen semen from already death or gelded stallions has been used. A "practical" solution would be to allow AI for living stallions (because this will always be done), but to prohibit for dead and gelded ones. This combines "philosophical" with "economic" approach. But as I said, we can continue discussing endlessly. Some compromise must be found.

51. Maria01/17/2007 16:56:31

Hans-Jurg, just the last response then When I discussed this with Leonid once, he expressed a view that cooled semen, particularly taken from the stallion on the same or nearby premises where the mare is, is not so bad, in his view. Because it is done almost like live cover, for the reason that live cover is difficult for some veterinary reason. Leonid's main objection was to ET because he felt that the host mother is bound to influence the development of the foal after it's been born. I am just passing on what he said. As you know, I am not a breeder, only an owner of a perfectly celibate stallion, so have absolutely no stake in this discussion whatsoever. And I do my best not let him run around wild though he did escape once. He ran to the neighbours' mares but stopped to admire them over the fence and I was lucky to catch him at that point.

52. Jessica01/17/2007 17:06:47

It all begins with the basics; rules for registration and identification of the animals to be inscribed as purebreds. If the register asks for a signed breeding report from the stallion owner, were method of breeding will have to be reported such as live cover, fresh semen, cooled, frozen, etc the breeding method will be known for all horses registered.
The register will have to decide which breeding method is not allowed for registration. For TB GSB the rule is clear: "all racehorses must be a result of a stallion's mating with a mare which is the physical mounting of mare by a stallion with intromission of the penis and ejaculation of semen into the mating tract. As an aid to the mating, a portion of the ejaculate produced by the stallion during such mating may immediately be placed in the reproductive tract of the mare being bred."
The register would have to formulate clear rules on what methods would be allowed for a foal to be registered, the WAHO has forbidden cloning, no cloned Arabian horse will be registered as purebreds, but foals produced by methods such as AI and ET to be inscribed as purebreds. WAHO has mandatory rules as well as policies. One policy is to not recommend stallion licensing as they consider it discriminating however, some national registries have stallion licensing. This has to do with the fact that a true world registry will have to consider differences in national rules and regulations for horse breeding.
Another important issue for a register to consider is if the register will accept to have horses dismissed from the register retroactively( as it is today with the Russian studbook).
The methods for proper identification, branding, chip markings etc.
The present method for identification is not satisfactory and will not be approved for an international registry.
For a registry to maintain integrity the methods for identification and verification of purity (according to the rules) must be as safe and transparent as possible. I think this is one of the bigger problems the breed is facing today.
An international register could actually work out mandatory rules as well as policies, a mandatory rule could be that a foal produced by semen from a dead stallion will never be allowed to be registered as purebred. A policy could be to limit the number of foals being registered from one stallion using the AI method. Stallion X can
have 20 offspring produced by AI, number 21 will not be registered.
But as Hans-Jürg pointed out, there must be an agreement about the AI issue as otherwise there would be registries for AI and ET produced Tekes (the Russian studbook) and registries that did not allow for those registrations. Certainly something to ponder about.
For me personally the accuracy of the records are of highest priority at this point as well as the service to the public and the breeders. At this point we all realise that the "mysticism" around registering and grading and other issues in the Russian studbook is not a good selling point for the heavenly breed.
I can see that the AI question can kill this international initiative in its embryonal stage which would be a pity.
Maybe a step by step approach on what would be acceptable is the best way, can fresh semen be accepted, can frozen and if so how many foals per year etc. Whatever is decided the method for breeding should be transparent and declared by the register, important statistics for future discussions can be pulled from such reports. As for now we do not know what foals are results of what breeding methods, except for those from dead stallions.
It would have been great to be able to see how many % of the foals annually that were produced by AI or ET for this discussion.

53. Jessica 01/17/2007 17:16:08

Robert, you can do so many cool things with a thoroughly designed database, you can for example give different accesses down to field level of every entered variable. You can have some fields that can be read by a big group and fields that can be read by a smaller group as well as fields that can be edited by one one person and of course you keep an audit trail on all changes. Pictures and scanned documents can be added for every horse. Total transparency and the right access to the right person.

54. Hans-Jurg Buss01/17/2007 18:59:57

Jessica, the AI issue will not kill a serious international initiative as long as we remain open minded. I called it a "practical" solution, you say "step by step". I think in the essence we agree, we just must establish basic rules for the immediate future and make sure that if these rules should be changed once in a more restrictive way that will not be applied retroactively. In today's practice I guess AI is not very widespread in AT breed. So this issue for rational people should not be allowed to become the killing element for a global and transparent registry/stud book.

55. shael01/18/2007 06:32:39
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

пропдвжв

56. shael01/18/2007 07:33:18
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Извините за предыдущий пост.
Я изложу свои мысли по русски, Маша, пожалуйста переведите если есть время.

О "дороговизне" искусственного осеменения (ИО). Петра привела расчёты и это всё равно это дешевле, чем брать жеребца в аренду или посылать кобылу на случку или покупать жеребца.
В Положении о Книге записано
"9. Жеребенок, полученный путем искусственного осеменения, может быть зарегистрирован в "Регистре молодняка" и записан в Студбуке под матерью только в том случае, если он получен от жеребца, одобренного Селекционно-племенным Центром. Для этого необходим официальный документ, подтверждающий факт искусственного осеменения, а также данные иммуногенетических тестов и тестов ДНК приплода и родителей. Регистрация таких жеребят стоит дороже."
То есть фактически идёт принудительное лицензирование жеребцов. Но это не главное.
Когда вы говорите, что купить жеребца дешевле, чем ИО, то мы видимо говорим о разных жеребцах. Я недавно продал жеребца за $ 3000, а случка с Газыром, Мургабом стоит от $ 5000. Если вас интересуют жеребцы топ уровня, то это совершенно другие деньги, как за случку, так и на их покупку. Я делю лошадей следующим образом:
1. Лошади для верховой езды - до $10000;
2. Лошади для верховой езды и при этом имеющие потенциал для спорта и племенного использования - от $ 10000 до 30000;
3. Лошади имеющие несомненную ценность для племенного использования - от 30000 до 50000;
4. Лошади, продажа которых нанесёт племенной ущерб коннозаводству, которые являются базовыми для завода - от 50000 до бесконечности.
При этом возраст лошади не имеет никакого значения.
Ценообразование зависит от объёма денежных масс, находящихся в обслуживании коннозаводства и его клиентов.
Необходимо создавать индустрию, где найдут для себя хлеб множество людей разных специальностей. Биотехнологии приведут к сокращению занятости людей и к выхолащиванию коннозаводства.
Всех жеребцов будут кастрировать, предварительно накачав спермы и продавать. Вместо конюшни с производителями будет стоять холодильник и DVD player. Поголовье кобыл будет значительно сокращено и как следствие будет сокращаться генофонд и творчество.
Надо сказать, что любая технология имеет обыкновение дешеветь и биотехнологии не исключение. Удешевление ахалтекинской лошади приведёт к потере рынка класса люкс, а на других секторах рынка царят другие герои.

57. maria01/18/2007 10:33:04

About the costs of Artificial Insemination (AI). Petra gave us some figures. It is still cheaper than leasing a stallion or sending a mare to be covered or buying a stallion. The Studbook Regulations say: 9. “A foal born as a result of Artificial Insemination can be registered in the Youngstock Register under its dam only if s/he has been sired by a stallion, approved by the Selection and Breeding Centre. For this, one must possess an official document, which confirms that Artificial Insemination had taken place, and also the results of immuno-genetic testing and DNA testing of the sire and dam and the off-spring. The cost of registration of such foals is higher than normal.” So in effect, there is a forced licensing of stallions taking place here. But this is not the main problem. When you say that to buy a stallion is cheaper than AI, we are most likely talking about different stallions. I recently sold a stallion for USD 3,000 but Gasyr’s or Murgab;s stallion fee is USD 5,000. If you are intersted in the top-quality stallions, then you need to think in terms of very different money, be it for purchase or cover. I divide horses in the following way: 1. Riding horses – up to USD 10,000 2. Riding horses which have a sports potential and breeding potential – between USD 10,000 and 30,000 3. Horse which clearly have breeding value – from 30,000 to 50,000 4. Horse whose sale will cause harm to the breeding work of the stud and which form the foundation stock of the stud – from USD 50,000 to infinity The age of the horse is immaterial. Price levels are set depending on the monetary pool available to the breeders and their clients. It is necessary to create an industry in which many people of different specialisations will find a bread-winning occupation. Biotechnologies will lead to the reduction in the range of these occupations and the horse-breeding becoming sterile. All the stallions will get gelded, after they have been collected for sale. Instead of a stable with breeding stallions there will be a freezer and a DVD player. The number of breeding mares will be reduced with a subsequent reduction in genetic diversity and in creativity. Also, it should be mentioned that any technology has the tendency to become more affordable and AI is no exception. The reduction in prices of the Akhal-Teke horses will lead to the loss of the luxury-goods market, and the other sectors of the market is ruled by their own kings.

58. Jessica01/18/2007 11:03:52

Let' focus on the issues we can agree on, like creating a good and sound breed with a thrilling legend and multiple usage that will interest a market that is prepared to pay a little bit extra for a unique horse. The prices asked for Tekes today, even top prices, are low compared to top prices paid for other horse breeds.
There is plenty of room for improvement and I think falling back on issues that split rather than unite is not good marketing and will not create the market this breed deserves and needs to survive.

The reality today is that AI and ET is allowed in our breed. National studbooks for the breed such as Russia, USA, Switzerland and France allow AI in this breed and to be honest I do not think these studbooks will close their registries for AI produced foals in the future.
As Leonid knows the marketing of the Teke breed is very much about hard work and finding the right investors, in order to do so we should present the Teke concept in an attractive package.
Next step that Maria asked for is to create a group of breeders that are willing to sacrifice time to work out a concept for how to improve international cooperation.

59. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 13:39:02
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Thank you Leonid for explaining AI like that. I am making up a Squidoo lens (http://www.squidoo.com/breed/) on breeding and I would like to put the translated version of your comment (#57) on it - is that ok?

60. maria01/18/2007 14:08:18

With an attribution for author and translator, please...

61. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 14:19:50
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

sorry - http://www.squidoo.com/breed

62. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/18/2007 14:22:35
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

what is your last name Maria and do you have a webpage?
Thanks!

63. Maria01/18/2007 15:46:12

Kerri-Jo, no webpage, I am afraid, and several Last Names due to itinerant lifestyle. Go for "Maria Marquise" - the enfant terrible of the Yahoo list.

64. Jessica01/18/2007 15:49:31

Kerri, make sure that you refer to writer, translator as well as refer with link to this blog.
Maria, if you are the enfant terrible on the Yahoo list, who am I

65. shael01/18/2007 15:59:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

I prefer to be king terrible

66. Jessica01/18/2007 16:39:50

The three djigits Leonid the King Terrible, Alexander the King of History, Todd the king of Cyberstudbook have been joined in the fight for the survival of the Argamak by Maria the Enfant Terrible on her white steed with blue eyes. More djigits will join and soon, again, the Argamak will be most sought after horse in the world!

67. Darya01/19/2007 05:23:55
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I love discussions like this one! The only name I can think for myself is Darya the Windblown with Dominik the Loud after our yesterdays adventures...

Kerry, nice job with gathering all the info nicely on one page!

Best,

Darya

68. shael01/19/2007 05:48:13
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Пресс-релиз

Вырастить сына, построить дом, посадить дерево… и увидеть текинца

5000 лет традиций чистокровного разведения.ахалтекинской породы лошадей.
“Ахалтекинская лошадь — это первая чистокровная порода мира, последние капли того источника чистой крови, с помощью которой было создано всё культурное коннозаводство…”
В течение тысячелетий не было другой породы лошадей, которая по красоте, силе, резвости и выносливости могла выдержать сравнение с ахалтекинцами.
В.О.Витт
Россия стала второй родиной для ахалтекинской лошади. Нигде невозможно найти такого количества энтузиастов, любителей и знатоков этой удивительной породы лошадей. «Древние россияне любили сих лошадей безмерно… и потомкам надлежит оправдать их выбор» - писал в 1824 году первый русский иппологический еженедельник.
В мире нет более эффектной лошади, чем величественный ахалтекинец, гибкий и пружинистый, переливающийся золотом на солнце, плавно скользящий на рыси или стелющийся в галопе. (А. Климук)
Никакая лошадь не представляет такого сочетания длинных линий с такими видимыми признаками силы и высокой энергии. Европейцу он мог бы показаться слишком тонким и лёгким, но, внимательно присмотревшись к строению туркменского коня, находишь удивительную приспособленность к быстроте и сопротивлению. Какие рычаги, какие мускулы, сухожилия, ширина и объём сочленений! (Э Гайо - французский ипполог)
Ахалтекинская, несомненно, одна из красивейших конских пород. Кто раз увидел ахалтекинца, всегда отличит его среди других лошадей: экстерьер его необычен и поражает взгляд утонченностью и благородством.

Будучи древнейшей чистокровной породой, ахалтекинцы признаны прародителями современного культурного коневодства, первыми в ряду чистокровных пород. (А. Климук)

Нигде в Мире и только в России есть возможность увидеть звезд конного мира - царственных ахалтекинцев на уникальном шоу «Текинская Пальмира – шаЭль». Свои «бриллианты» представят мировые лидеры ахалтекинского коннозаводства, а также лошади из частных коллекций. (в том числе из конюшни В. Путина).
На суд зрителей и авторитетного жюри будет представлен многоступенчатый конкурс, где цвет текинских лошадей будет показан во всём своём величии, как на свободе, так и в сравнении - в борьбе за звание «Самой красивой лошади - 2007».
Парад красоты и грации сопровождается оригинальной живой музыкой и танцами, окрашенными в восточные тона.
ХХl век даёт человеку удивительные возможности, но увидеть лучших из живых потомков боевых соратников Египетских фараонов, царя Соломона и Александра Великого можно только в России, на шоу «Текинская Пальмира – шаЭль».
Эти лошади пахнут потом Дария. (А. Глухарёв)

Л. Бабаев
http://horsegames.ru/

69. 01/19/2007 09:29:35

To raise a son, to build a house, to plant a tree… and to see a real Akhal-Teke. A five-thousand-year-old tradition of breeding a pure Akhal-Teke horse. “The Akhal-Teke horse – is the first thoroughbred horse in the world, the last drops of the orginal source of the pure blood which helped to created all cultivated breeding traditions in the world...” For thousands of years, there was no other breed of equal beauty, strength, speed and stamina (V.O. Vitt). Russian has become a second homeland for the Akhal-Teke horse. Nowhere can one find the same numbers of enthusiasts, connoisseurs and experts of this marvellous breed. “Ancient Russian admired this horse immesurably… and their descendants should strive to prove that their choice was right”, writes the author of an article in one of the first Russian Equestrian weekly journals. There is no other horse that leaves such unforgettable impression as the noble Akhal-Teke – lithe, light and springy, glistening with gold in the rays of the sun, with its smooth gliding trot and a ground-lining gallop (A. Klimuk). No other horse has the unique combination of long, elegant lines with such overtly expressive signs of strength and energy. To a European eye it may appear to be of slight built but if one looks carefully at its conformation one will find a remarkable aptitude for speed and endurance. “What engine, what muscles, tendons, width and capacity of its joints!” (E. Gallo – French Hippologist). The Akhal-Teke horse is certainly one of the most beautiful breeds. Those who have seen it once, will always recognised it amongst other horses: its appearance is unique and strikes one’s eye with its refinement and noble form. As one of the most ancient of all pure breeds, the Akhal-Teke horse is recognised as the precursor of all modern “cultivated” breeding, the first thoroughbred tradition. (A. Klimuk) Nowhere in the world other than in Russia will people get a comparable chance to see the brightest-shining stars of the equestrian world, as when the regal Akhal-Teke horses will be appear at the unique show “Teke Palmira – shaEl”. The jewels of the breed will be presented by the leading breeders of the Akhal-Teke, including horses from private collections (among them, the stables of President Putin). The spectators and the authoritative panel of judges will evaluate a multi-phase contest, where the Akhal-Teke horse will appear in all its glamour – in free-moving style individually and in competition to win the title of “The Most Beautiful Horse - 2007”. The parade of beauty and grace will be accompanied by live music and dance, in Eastern style. The 21st century affords people an array of opportunities, yet, in order to see the living descendants of the equine companions of the Egyptian pharaohs, of King Solomon and Alexander the Great, one has to come to Russia, to the equestrian show “Teke Palmira – shaEl”. These horses carry the smell of the sweat of the Emperor Darius (A. Glukharev). L. Babaev http://horsegames.ru/

70. Kerri-Jo Stewart01/19/2007 16:45:09
Homepage: http://Akhal-Teke.ca

Wow, what a beautiful description of Akhal-Tekes. I hope this event is a yearly one so I can go next year!

Once again I have put your comment Leonid on another lens ( http://www.squidoo.com/akhal-tekes/ )

Thanks Darya - I figured as I am searching for information I may as well make it available to others.

71. Jessica01/19/2007 17:50:07

Leonid, can you email me a cool picture so that I can add the press release as main subject. It will be so exciting to see the pictures from the event!

72. shael01/20/2007 03:14:58
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

Jessica, I don't understand you. This show will be in May.
http://horsegames.ru/publication/index.php?publicationtree_id=37

73. Darya01/20/2007 04:38:43
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Some Akhal Teke pics there: http://horsegames.ru/gallery/index.php?gallerytree_id=19

74. shael01/20/2007 05:06:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.com

That are accidental and not best pictures.

75. Darya01/20/2007 06:22:42
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I can see that, but thought I share the link as not everyone can look through the web as it is in Russian. Have you got any nice ones that haven't been published yet? Would be nice to see. May be you can send them to Jessica and she can put them up on the blog. Thanks for all the beautiful descriptions of AT, and thanks Maria for translating beautifully too. It seems like among all the discussions sometimes we forget to admire the horses. It certainly made me feel good.

76. maria01/20/2007 15:08:12

Jessica and all, Does anyone have a photo of Piastr? I would like to see it. Also, I wonder if another string could be started - I would like to discuss stallions versus mares in the Akhal-Teke breed and how they behave under saddle, and whether the gender manifests itself differently in the AT compared to other breeds. Is it true that AT stallions are, in some ways, easier to deal with than stallions of other breeds? Is it true that mares are more subdued and compliant and fenimine that one would expect in another breed? Is the fact that historically stallions were mainly ridden and not mares - does it have an influence on the behaviour of an AT today? Those who have ridden lots of them might have some insights to share... If you think it's a load of rubbish, by all means tell me so. I suspect it might be.

77. Darya01/20/2007 15:46:24
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria,
here's one of Piastr, keep scrolling: http://www.hevosmaailma.net/Breedinfo/Pics/akhal.shtml

Interesting subject, would be nice to hear people's opinions and experiences.

Darya

78. maria01/20/2007 16:47:27

Thank you, Darya! What a long-legged creature. Now I would like to see what his foal Goluntchik turned out to be like... He belongs to Andrea Rauter in Austria but the only picture of him is when he was very young...

79. Jessica01/29/2007 09:51:55

Maria, I created a new thread on gender differences. I would like to add about Piastr, that he has loads of energy, he is very long lined and elegant, he is not a beginners horse though!