I have added one picture, I do not think that he looks like a fat pig, but I think though, that he could work harder and more focused on the lunge line, I'd recommend rubber band (bungee) or a Chambon to make him engage hind end and back more, that will make him more tired and also to add a lot of halts, and trot and walk changes so that his brain will have to be 100% engaged.
Some new challenges like small jumps will be good for body building, balance and also strenghten the back and hind end.

And Maria, on your wish list for Christmas, add a horse walker! (I have one on my wish list to!)

1. Darya10/04/2006 10:24:58
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Lovely work and lovely picture, Maria. I don't think he looks like a fat pig either . I'm going to start lunge work on my Dom soon, I'm waiting on a roller so I can make him work hard too. He is still a bit nervous about things and at the moment I am just walking him around and introducing him to things. He makes good progress every day and I'm very happy with him. I'm convinced now that Tekes are fast learners. Maria, are you thinking of training Mualim up for dressage competitions?

2. Leonid10/04/2006 10:34:57
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Maria, send me fotos too, please.

3. Maria10/04/2006 15:58:32

Lenia, I have managed to work out how to upload them on the web: took me a few days, I sometimes can't believe how little brain I have! Try this link and let me know if you can see them. I will take some more under saddle next weekend.

http://photos.blueyonder.co.uk/album/thumbnails.html?rr=847040&c_album=4118221

4. Maria10/04/2006 16:08:02

Jessica, I have a difficult dilemma about the bungee.

My trainer is against it. She has developed a method over many years, and bungee-on-the-lunge is not part of it. She uses draw-reins but only under saddle and not so early in the training. I am nobody to question and she is by far the best trainer I have ever had. Mualim doesn't look brilliant on the lunge - he only engages in walk and for a few seconds in trot but she says this will come, he has to learn to balance before we make him work harder. She herself has a Grand-Prix-trained French TB (I am hoping to have a lesson on him, to get a feel what it's like to sit on a real dressage horse), and she generally likes working with the lighter type of horse with a sensitive temperament. So I don't want to start arguing - there are very few *real* dressage trainers in the South-West of England. Let's see how it goes with Mualim - so far we are getting good obedience, we do a lot of halt-walk-trot transitions under saddle - in fact, we mostly do 20 steps trot-5 walk, never long repeated trot circles, and he does engage much more under saddle.

I must say I do feel very tempted to hang a bungee on him when I look at the photos of Merdjen but she says it will restrict his shoulder, so I think I need to trust her, at least for now.

5. Maria10/04/2006 16:19:13

Dasha

I am very much hoping to do dressage with Mualim. Whether I will compete myself or can persuade my trainer to compete with him, we shall see. We have only been doing work in the sand school for 2 months, so it's very very early stage but I am keen to document how - hopefully - we improve over time.

Mualim was three in May. I have started riding him when he was two years old but for the first year I only rode outside. I can really recommend riding past all sorts of "obstacles": cars, tractors, farm animals, through narrow and through open spaces. It is really excellent education for a young horse and I think it is actually safer, because the horse (especially a stallion) is concentrating on things around him and not thinking how to rear up and throw you off! Mualim has actually a very strong character and I have to be quite careful not to argue with him by means of force!

If Dominic is unsure about cows and other things, the best approach is very quiet patience. Allow him to stand and look, don't try to make him go near the things he is worried about. I had a Teke before Mualim who was a much more delicate and anxious horse and it took a long time to get him to be confident.

Mualim is a "tank" - he will happily attack a tractor or a cow if I let him

6. Darya10/04/2006 16:45:16
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria,
I wish you all the best with your horses, and may be yours, dressage career. This is very good news. Yes I have learnt that Dominik is not quite a tank, but rather a big baby. I have not taken him out to cows again, as that has taken a good day to get over. All I'm doing is walking him round the field, making sure he is happy with everything appearing at the gates now and then. I have learnt, that any amount of force doesn't work at all with him. If he stops and doesn't want to go forward, I just turn him round 360 degrees and he keeps walking fine. I also brush him a lot, and touch&scratch him, he loves it and seems to accept me better and trust me. I can't wait to start riding him, but I do not want to rush it and put him off.

7. Nadja10/04/2006 17:00:19
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

Darya
Dominik cannot are afraid of cows. Cows are at us everywhere. And on our field, where we work horses , cow are grazed constantly. And cows are at us in a shelter near to manege. Sometimes horses do specially " round eyes " on something familiar. But it only the reason to more play.
He is not afraid of tractors, cows, geese, machines and all other He is a skilled horse, who frequently worked in unfamiliar places. But you are right in one, he is the big child.

8. Darya10/05/2006 02:30:05
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Nadja,
I'm glad to hear that he is not afraid of cows, he has only seen them from the distance and has got very upset. May be he was worried about the mare left behind as well. Plus I think it was a bit early for him and he needs to trust me first. So I left the cows for now and just trying to get his trust. He is getting there and I'm sure I will have a happy confident horse here soon enough. I think with all this travel and change, he still doesn't know, whether he is comming or going and what is what.

9. Jessica 10/05/2006 09:49:47

Maria,
You should stick to the methods suggested by your trainer, she is the one who can judge what is best for you and Mualim.
Everything you do to the horse that is done in the wrong way will take away a little bit of its natural athletism.
If your trainer feels that working on a bungee will lock his shoulders, I understand her not wanting you to do that.
But then what does she think the purpose is with letting the horse run in circles, unfocused unengaged on a lunge line, that, he might as well do in the pasture.
There is a balance between working the young horse in the way so that you teach him to engage his hindend and also to activate and strenghten the back and abdomen muscles. The long and low form will in the long run make your horse walk on his shoulders so you want to make sure to pick him up in time and make the neck the highest point, but that can only come from behind so to say if you want the true collected form from where you can do the classical dressage movements or jump big jumps.

10. maria10/05/2006 11:57:44

Jessica I think you and my trainer will be in agreement on most points, actually. I am due to have a couple of lunging lessons soon. I think at the moment she is wanting to concentrate on his responsiveness to halt aids and turns from the shoulder (by using the reins and no leg aids) and ensure he walks forward unimpeded. Under saddle, he is starting to stretch in walk and take the rein forward in a perfect textbook way. Marylin says that eventually he will be able to trot and canter with his nose down on the ground. Might try and do a short video at the weekend. : - )

11. Darya10/05/2006 14:20:32
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria,
Maybe you could invite your trainer when I come visit with my stallion, see if she can have a look at him and tell if he is any good for dressage, as she sounds a really good trainer and may be she could give us some valuable advice.

12. maria11/02/2006 05:35:25

Very interesting to read Hans-Jurgīs advice to Darya and want to share my own perspective. When I had my first AT who was a green 5-year-old when I bought him, similar to Dominik, when riding out, he would spot a scary thing somewhere in the distance, turn around in a split second and gallop back. Quick as lightening and with a pretty green rider on his back, it wasnīt going very well! His German breederīs advice was "When you feel him getting tensed up, donīt urge him to go forward. Keep his head straight, so that he cannot turn around but do not force him forward towards the spook. Let him stand and when you feel him relax, then gently ask for a step forward." For weeks we were seen in the area standing and staring at things. Dog walkers in particular took keen interest in enquiring whether we were alright.

Experience doesnīt come overnight and it took me near-enough two years to learn to ride him. It would have worked a lot quicker if I wasnīt as green as he was but the approach was an interesting one, and it did take us through a very successful endurance season in 2003.

When we lost him, I applied the same approach to a reject Arab mare whom nobody wanted to ride because she was so skitty and shied at every stone. With her it worked within 3 weeks and she became so bold that I started using her as a lead horse, taking out neighbours with spooky horses who didnīt want to go past things on their own. There is, of course, a psychological element there as well - you show the horse at the very moment when it is feeling insecure that you are calm and not afraid yourself and you are the decision-maker. The difference is in whether you ask them to move forward or to stand still.

Mualim has a very different temperament from those other two to whom I applied the stand-still technique. They were scared of things and wanted to run away from them. He wants to take off forward, not sideways or backwards, in what to me feels like him wanting to let off steam (and be a racehorse). He tries to take off as soon as I attempt a transition from walk to trot when we ride out, accompanied by a characteristic Teke body-twist I have seen many times - the only breed which can buck and rear simultenously! So with Mualim, I just bring him back to walk and try the trot again, until he agrees not to run.

Darya, do you ride Dominik out or just around the paddock? Do you feel he is spooking or playing up? My suggestion would be NOT to ride him with the mare around but to take him out, the same route several days in a row, a little further every day. You only want 20 minutes at this stage, no more. And I would ride him in walk until he is relaxed and obedient for the whole duration of a short ride. Whether you use go/forward or stand/still method if the need arises, is up to you! But do come back to the blog and tell us about the results!

13. Darya11/02/2006 05:51:21
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria, I want to point out first, that he is not scared of anything. The impression I get all the time, is that he is playing with me and trying to put me off so that I turn round, take him back and just leave him alone to do what he wants to do. He can be very independant, and that makes it difficult, he does not like to be bossed around. From one side, I do not want to push it too far so that he turns on me, from the other, he needs a good push to be able to get him to submit and do as he is told. It is quite difficult to find the right balance. I do not ride him out yet, I take him out in hand. Do you find he would be calmer and more obedient if I rode him instead? Or shall I try ground rein him using a roller? I think our main preoblem is that he is trying to tell me what to do, and it should be the other way round. Saying that he is making a progress though and is getting better, but I was just wondering, what sort of advise people would give on the issue. I must admit, at the moment, if he is stopping to look at something out in the distance, I do not try to stop him from doing so and once he has relaxed a bit, I ask him to go forward. Thank you very much for your advise.

14. Tabitha11/02/2006 08:01:07

Hi Darya

I don't know if you've ever considerd it but I had the same problems with Agan untill I started to do Natural Horsemanship with him.
The basis of NH is to teach your horse you're the leader and you can be relied on 100%.
Since I had my lessons of NH with him I learned a lot about my behaviour and his. Better said I learned to control my body language and to use my body telling him things instead of confusing him.
Before those lessons he was always trying to take the lead when walking with him outside or basically anywhere and I had to put him back every time. And he used new tricks every time the trick he used no longer worked because I had figured out what to do to get him to do what I wanted him to do.
It's so much easier now. I walk in front and he walks behind, if there's something that scares him I just don't react to his alarm (starting to walk "high" and trotting or make this weird jump when they are startled and try to get away from what startled them) and he looks at me not reacting and calmes down again, because his leader is actually saying (by not reacting to his alarm) there's nothing to be spooked about.

Sometimes he tries to take over the lead again but then I go back to basis of NH (or just some leadership practices on the ground as going backwards for me or going sideways) and then everything is ok again.

Oh yes and I also learned that he doesn't like "to be bossed around" either (do we both own a Teke or what?? ). What I learned is to be really polite. treat him like he is an emperor . So ask politely and subtle and give him the time to react (3-4 seconds) and he will comply. Ask him rudely and he will object strongly. Just like an emperor or king/Queen would do.
If after my subtle request he doesn't comply I make the request a little less subtle and give him another 3 seconds, if there's still no reaction the request no longer is subtle and if then after 3 secodns there's still no response it no longer is a request. Usually I only have to give the first subtle request. but if I ever have to go all the way to no request Agan is not insulted (like he would be if I started with ordering right from the start) but tells me he's sorry he didn't listen the first time (by chewing after responding to hte order). He deserved the correction and he knows it and doesn't blame me for giving it but respects me all the more.

15. Darya11/02/2006 08:52:20
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria! Tabitha! Everyone! Thank you so much for all your thoughts and sharing your experience. I would just like to let you know that I am one happy Teke owner today! I have just been out for usual daily exersices with my horses, and Dom was like an angel (or a shire) I have taken him out just on a headcollar and lunge rope to the paddock, and done a couple of circules walking in hand round paddock, that is where he amazed me first, as there was no more me digging in heels trying to slow him down. he walked calmly, relaxed, shoulder to shoulder with me, no pulling, no donkey. I have changed directions a few times and he remained ever so good. I have run him on the lunge, and he was very good than. So I have got inspired and decided to take him out to the farm. He was calm than too. We approached the road, where he used to play up all the time before, and he just walked on calmly. We walked all the way down the road the length of the field, turned round and went back, than did it again. He has only stoped briefly once to have a look around and then walked on as asked! What has caused such a change? I might sound weird now, but yesterday night during usual stable cleening legs/feeding and rugging up for the night routine, he was trying my patience refusing to stand still and give feet. After a while I have stood in front of him, and told him (in Russian): "I am the one who feeds you and looks after you and if you do not listen I will never feed you again. No matter what you do, it will be my way in the end." It was one of these moments when you say something and you really mean it, thinking of it intensively at the same time as you say words. It was very funny watching his face, although he suddenly understood me and was very sorry. Since that moment he did everything I asked of him, and I can see results today as well. I always try and treat him with respect, but I always ask to be respected, as you do not want this large strong animal treat you with disrespect. Maria knows, as he never bit her when she visited, even though he was hungry first thing in the morning, as I always teach him to treat me with respect.

16. maria11/02/2006 09:01:17

I have dabbled in NH but didn■t pursue it past the most basic principles which, I find, are practiced by many good trainers anyway.

I went to see Monty Roberts live and it is very interesting and admirable in many ways but it is also, I found, more for people whose training methods are really SOOOO different that they see his approach as a revolution. There were things I was already doing before I went to see Monty - for example, I never lead Mualim on a short rope, always a long one and I never hold the rope under his chin, always with a lot of loose rope to spare. If he pulls, I make him turn on his haunches. They soon learn it is hard work and stop pulling. When I take Mualim out in hand, I also carry a whip and the combination of the long rope and whip gives you all the body language you need to control a stallion. The rest is practice. Both the long rope and the whip (never used as a punishment, I hasten to add) are NH "tools of trade" but I was using both before I went to see Monty. Many people in England find it strange that I don■t lead on a short rein but I find it too dangerous! If a stallion rears, I want to be able to step back and let him come down in front of me and not on top of my head.

What Tabitha describes about leading when you walk in front and he submissively walks behind is ideal. We find we can■t do this with Mualim because his natural character is too dominant. He is a classic herd leader, he wants to push everyone out of the way and get in front, so we have negotiated a compromise which works. He can walk alongside the handler (which is good for showing anyway) but not allowed to pull, not allowed to push you sideways and not allowed to get behind you (we just don■t feel it is safe to let him walk behind because he is always looking to bite your ears off). So to some extent it does depend on the individual horse. The main thing is to establish the boundaries which suit all parties.

I certainly find Mualim INFINITELY easier to ride than to lead but we are at the stage I am perfectly able to lead him in most situations apart from the really challenging ones. The other day I rode out through the farm at dusk, on the way back I decided to lead down a steep field (not to strain his legs). It was almost dark, two young bullocks started galloping towards us, a tractor with lights on was coming down towards us, the field was extremely wet and slippery and bats were flying around everywhere making whoosh noises. He got pretty hyped-up and it took me ages to get him down that field but we got there. But this is an extreme situation...

With Dominik, I would suggest leading with saddle and bridle on and riding part of the way. If he plays up in hand, one of the best exercises is stepping back. If you make him step back and he complies, you have won his attention. I would not forbit him to look at things but I would try to let him do it occasionally, not every time. So that he learns that he can only do it when you agree. I used to let Altai look at everything. But with Mualim I tend to do the opposite because he is just so dominant that I am worried I will loose ground. So perhaps make Dominik walk on and only let him stop to look at things at the very end of the session, once he has obeyed all commands for the duration of the walk.

17. maria11/02/2006 09:06:16

Good for you, Darya!

I am delighted for you. I don■t know if he understood your Russian but your inner resolve clearly communicated itself to him.

He is a sweet horse and a gentle temperament, without any malice in him, I am sure you will gain his obedience in time, probably in a fairly short time.

18. Jessica11/02/2006 09:22:56

Darya, It's great to see how you could analyse the situation and change your own behaviour and get an immediate response.
Dominik read your body language that you where determined and responded to that.
With horses it is optimal to have a very strong and bold body language,walk in to your horse with straight back and determined steps, be calm but dominant and you will see a change in attitude. For the horse it is very relaxing to have a leader around to tell them what to do.
You can try different body language approaches to Dominik and see how he responds to them.
I demand 100% and instant obedience for the forward and stop commands in my horses, always. This is my safety strategy for managing my horses in all situations. As long as the brain is "working forwards" you are mostly safer than when the flight brain takes over. Then of course some things can really scare a horse and make them turn on the flight brain, there you will have to show calm leadership and make him again turn on the "forward" brain. If you do it by stopping or riding forward I would say depend on the situation as well as the result you get.The important thing is that you make the descision not the horse.
Some of our Tekes have been very bold and curious and more or less chased the "monsters" while others have been more prone to turn on the flight brain.
If you have a very hot or over alert horse when you are riding him in the fields or forest, you might distract him by making him work and concentrate on your aids and commands. He will then feel more comfortable than if he has to think for himself.

19. Darya11/02/2006 09:25:17
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thanks, Maria. I think Dominik is quite dominant as well, may be not as dominant, as Mualim, but I think shoulder to shoulder walk, with no pulling/pushing suits us both very well. So I can see what he is up to and feel safer that way. I always walk on lunge line as I do feel safer that way too, the only whip I got though is lounge whip, but I think I will need to get a riding one for when I am riding him as I think it will help. And I always talk to my horses in Russian, I guess so that I do not forget it myself.

20. Darya11/02/2006 09:38:33
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thanks, Jessica. I do try different things (apart from beating the horse of course), it is funny how some things tend to work with horses, even though they seem silly at a glance. I agree it is ever so important to have control over your horse first of all, and that is what I am working on. To take as an example my two are so different when I lunge them, I can poke the whip into his side and he will hardly react. With her I just have to pretend to bend and pick up the whip and she goes into gallop, and trotting requieres no whip whatsoever. So it is all about figuring out the best way for the particular horse. I am happy in the way that he is not really afraid of things, he just likes to play. Our paddock is right next to a very busy road, so they hear all sorts of weird spooky noises and most of them hardly bother them. Same if he sees tractors or cows or weird heaps and logs on the farm, he is not really bothered with them. So I think once we have sorted out, who is the leader, he will be a very lovely bombproof horse and will go anywhere. I am really looking forward to that.

21. Darya11/02/2006 09:40:52
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

http://www.rarey.com/sites/jsrarey/jsrbook.html Just wanted to share this link, I have seen it a while ago and found it very interesting to read.

22. Jessica11/02/2006 10:19:45

Maria, I perfectly agree with you that you are much safer on the horse than by his side. You tractor, bullock, bat encounter sound likea a perfect Halloween Nightmare, I would have been scared myself!
When I got my first trotter to train, he was a beautiful bay stallion that had performed not so good in races though, I was young and optimistic and told the owner that I could train him to win. He was superhot to drive and really, really challenging to master, one day when I was out in woods driving, a piece of the tack broke and I thought that I would get out of the sulky to quickly mend it and then drive back home, at the same time a few other horses and riders showed up and Svante Bill, that was his name, of course reared up, knocked me over and ran me over with the sulky, that was painful. While I was on the ground, fighting to get back onto my feet, Svante Bill got all confused and did not know what to do, so I managed to get back into the sulky and make him turn his brain into forward mode and go back home. There was no way for me to sneak back into the stables to wash away the traces of my mishap before the owner saw us. He simply said, now've you learned that you are much stronger on or behind the horse than beside it.
Later Svante Bill actually won a race, unfortunately a few months later he had a bad colic and had to be euthanised.

23. Jessica11/02/2006 10:27:00

With a stallion it is a safety requirement to have a long lead rope with or without a chain as well as a whip. One must be aware of the fact that a stallion can suddenly turn aggression towards you in a stressful situation and you must then be able to get him away from you without letting him loose. Many, many torn off thumbs and fingers and other worse injuries has occured because people did not foresee their nice well behaved stallion suddenly gotten triggered by something and turned on them. Stallions are on all the time!

24. Darya11/02/2006 16:54:20
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Very interesting to read about your life experiences, Jessica. I always admire "horse people" for their determination. I think if you can train a horse successfully, you can overcome anything in your life. I will definitely invest in a whip tomorrow too.