Go to http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/09/3430913f-e07f-4dbe-8557-248a7f32c85e.html

1. Darya09/30/2006 07:56:26
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Would be very good without all the brainwashing (politics). My website is up and running by the way. :)

2. Heather Mahoney10/02/2006 09:42:41

Jessica,
Thank you for sharing the article with those of us that weren't able to listen to the radio broadcast.

Darya,
Your website looks very nice! I saw the dates for the Royal Show... I will keep that in mind! As we discussed before, I was disappointed that I would not be able to attend the May show you were talking about, but maybe the July show would be perfect, as we'll be on summer break from school, and I'll have no students to miss me! Will there be other AT's at the Royal show as well?
Cheers,
Heather

3. Darya10/02/2006 10:51:32
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Heather,
I'm glad you liked the web site, we are to get the contract in Nov for the Royal Show, so we will definitely be there. It is south of Birmingham, not that far from us actually. Maria is comming with her cremello beauty as well. You are welcome to see us there. I'm still not sure about the Devon County, still waiting for reply from them, we might get one later.

4. Leonid10/02/2006 15:26:10
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Хорошую кобылу Вы купили.

5. Darya10/02/2006 15:56:35
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you Leonid. I'm quite proud of both of them, she is a proper Turkmen horse. It is all quite exciting for me now, as I started working on them and it makes me feel very good with every step we take. I had trouble catching her first time out in the field, but the bucket with oats did the job fine. Second day I can catch her fine, she starts to trust me and that makes me one happy owner. :) I think I'll take some new pictures of them tomorrow or the day after and put them on the website in the gallery. Didn't take any yet, just wanted to make sure they are all settled in.

6. Leonid10/02/2006 16:08:01
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

She is really russian, four generations of russian selection. But who is second?

7. Leonid10/03/2006 03:19:19
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Дарья, а кем Вы собираетесь крыть Ойнам? Я бы Вам посоветовал Каракойсу от Гайгысыза. Он находится где-то во Франции.

8. Darya10/03/2006 04:19:01
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Leonid, Spasibo za sovet, krit hochu svoim jerebcom, Dominikom, tam informaciya est na moyom saite o nyom. Naskol'ko ya znayu, on toje russkii, linii Gelishikli. Posmotrite na ego rodoslovnuyu na saite, vi luchshe menya znayete, kto est kto. Ya dumayu, chto on horoshii jerebchik, ne legendarnii, no ochen horosh. Takovo moyo mnenie, v lyubom sluchaye.

9. Leonid10/03/2006 05:03:20
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Буду надеятся, что Вы не ошиблись в подборе.

10. Heather Mahoney10/03/2006 10:11:04

Leonid,
Who is this stallion in France? I did not recognize the name. Of course, this could be due to my very bad Russian, which truly, is not very good at all.

11. Darya10/03/2006 11:18:46
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ochen priyatno, chto vi za menya perejivaete (ili za kobilu?). Tak ili inache, eto delo moei jizni teper', i mne to bol'she vsego i nado volnovatsya, a ne vam. Da i v dobavok, ona je ne odnogo tol'ko jerebyonka rodit, ya nadeyus'. Posmotrim, chto poluchitsya, esli ne dovolna budu rezultatom, to mojet i s drugim jerebchikom poeksperimentiruem. Pervii jerebyonok u neyo uj ochen horosh. Vot ssilka na ego foto: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/h6.php?id=509 For confused non-Russian bloggers, I'm very sorry for my Russian. This is the link for my mare's first son, Osiris.

Da i kstati, Leonid, ya dumala, chto vo Francii tol'ko plohie Tekinci, eto uje ne tak?

12. maria10/03/2006 12:07:41

Dasha, there are some very good Teke in France, actually, including some of Shael breeding (including a yearling by Shaar) but there are others too. Azan is in France, for example. This is a link to Karakaisu: http://www.alamanstud.com/site_fr/ I will be happy to introduce you to the French breeders I know. The Association has done a lot of good work in France in the last couple of years.

13. Leonid10/03/2006 12:47:42
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Не зря говорят, не давай не прошенных советов. Тут же нарвался. Да по большому счёту, мне всё равно каких ишаков Вы будете разводить. Достойную кобылу жалко. Во Франции, безусловно есть отдельные достойные лошади, в том числе Каракойсу.

Blocked Response!10/03/2006 13:10:16

This response from IP Address 62.242.231.62 was blocked by the owner of this blog.

15. Darya10/03/2006 14:33:01
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Maria, i Leonid, ya pro loshadei vo Francii malo chego znayu, i eto ne moyo utverjdenie, chto tam horoshih loshadei net, ya uverena, chto est'. Prosto mne pripomnilsya odin iz starih blogov, gde kto to skazal chto to o negodnosti Francuzkih loshadei. Leonid, ya toje Russkaya, i k sojaleniyu, kak i vi, govoryu, chto dumayu. Vot i poluchaetsya okaziya. Ya znayu, chto vse vas tut bogotvoryat za vashu ekspertizu i loshadei. No ya esli kogo uvajayu, to ojidayu uvajeniya vozvrat. Chisto iz soobrajenii normalnogo chelovecheskogo obsheniya, a ne iz soobrajeniya, u kogo ferma bol'she i loshadei bol'she. Eto tut sovershenno ni pri chyom. Menya vpolne ustraivaet, esli vse ostanutsya pri svoih mneniyah. I eto pravo kajdogo cheloveka, kotoroe ne doljno pritisnyatsya drugimi lyudmi. Ladno, i tak dostatochno viskazalas. Ochen nadeyus, chto poimyote. Kobilu jalyet nechego, pomimo geneticheskogo materiala, ona jivotnoe, i ei tut ochen horosho, a eto samoe glavnoe, esli vam loshadi nravyatsya toje pomimo deneg.

16. Leonid10/03/2006 14:49:36
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Стало не интересно.

17. Jessica 10/03/2006 15:24:27

Leonid and Darya, with Todd's and Maria's help I can understand a little bit of what you are discussing.
I would like to take the opportunity to ask Leonid how you look at the birth right of breeding that comes with every pure bred stallion vs. selection of the breeding couples.
If every pure bred Teke stallion has birth right to be bred, how do you select the right partner to every stallion, or is it so, that eventhough every pure bred stallion has a birth right, not all of them should be bred.
The next breeding season we have in Europe the best year ever, in my opinion when it comes to selection of young unproven breeding stallions with very high estimated breeding value, very interesting imports have been made into countries such as Germany and France. Karakaisu certainly is of very valuable blood lines as well as of excellent type, it will be very interesting to see his first babies.
We are happy that we still have a mare in Europe when we have such a nice selection. A stallion that should be used more is also Ardon from the Arab line, he looks very promising as an improver.
However, no stallion is a magician so before we can see a real improvement in Europe, the new interesting stallions should really be bred to good mares.

18. Darya10/03/2006 15:45:05
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica,
<br>I am very sorry for this discussion turning into what it did, I did my best to avoid it. It does confuse me as Leonids position tends to change to suit the situation. One minute he is saying that any teke parents produce teke horse and the rest is nonsence, next minute he says one should not breed this horse, it is no good (to be more exact, a mule). For people it is really unclear, as there appeares to be no standarts, just opinions of experts, who can't make up their mind. May be you will clear the situation for me and tell me what is so wrong with my stallion? I think he looks very Teke and got some good horses like Dagestan in his pedigree. In the end, I did not expect anyone to get so excited about my mare, she is only class 1, same as the stallion, and I just wanted to get a couple of good sound Tekes (not excellent, not everyone can afford that), so I can breed some interesting, exotic and sound horses. They have had some wonderful mares and wonderful stallions at Akhal Service farm, I wish I could have bought them, but they are about 4 times more expensive, than mine, which were both for around the same price. So I am completely puzzled, what is all the fuss about? I'm not trying to compete with any big breeders, I'm merely an advertisement to the breed in this country, where a lot of people don't know anything about Tekes, so it is all only good for big breeders in Russia as more people will be interested in going and buying their horses.

19. Leonid10/03/2006 16:21:26
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Certainly, any pure Stallion can produce foals. Where is I said another? I like this genetic comlex Maxud-Opera, and congratulated Darya with Oynam. I recomended to cover her by Karakoysu and met agressia for my advice. I did not say even one bad word about Dominic, it is not my right. I said that Karakoysu seems good for Oynam only. Replay was unequal. I stop any connections by this theem.

20. Darya10/03/2006 16:34:24
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

How funny is that, now I am agressive. I quote: you can breed any mules you want. Or was that not about my horses? Since the mare is good, there is only one other mule left at my farm, or did I miss anyone? I only answered your questions, although, why do I bother, you change your words around quicker than the weather changes in England. I will never answer your questions again, I have learned my lesson, thank you.

21. Jessica 10/03/2006 17:34:45

Leonid and Darya,
I think we need more of these discussions in this breed, how do we select our breeding stallions? How do we educate new and enthusiastic breeders? How do we improve the quality of the Tekes in the west? Those discussions however are better and more giving without named stallions.
All of us wants more Tekes to be born and we need new enthusiastic owners as well as skilful, well educated (theoretically and hands on) breeders!
However, my point in asking Leonid about birth right to breed is of course that I do not agree with him on this issue and I like to discuss it with a breeder of Leonid's calibre.
I think there should be some kind of stallion approval procedure to at least recommend stallions from the different lines with different proven breeding values for racing, endurance, type improvement, height improvement, gaits, temperament etc.
These service to new and established breeders would, in my opinion, lead to an overall breed improvement.
As you can see Darya ( and also Akhalt Service in the pricing of the mare) has followed the recommendations given by MAAK.
It must be great for Darya to with the help of an experienced breeder come to the understanding that the class I mare has interesting blood lines and therefore a high breeding value. The recommendation to use Karakaisu is correct and given with good intentions. (I cannot comment on the mule issue as I do not read Russian! But maybe comparing someones Teke stallion to a mule might cause very intense feelings, like ball counting =).)
And Darya I do not think you should interpret this as your stallion is bad, but only that a better combination for your mare is Karakaisu, of course you as the breeder will do the selection.
What Leonid is not aware of though, is that in Europe and also to a larger extent in the USA the Tekes live like swans, the couples stay together forever, stallions are cheaper (here in the US you can almost get them for free as resque horses) than mares and once they are purchased they are used on the owner's mares until they die.
The approved by owners stallions are also advertised with every trait the imagination can come up with, however seldom as type improvers.
This situation discourage people from importing high class stallions from Russia into Europe or the USA, the market is flooded with bre eding stallion and each stallion can count on very few mares, so an investment in a high priced top class stallion will not give anything back. This I think must in a near future be discussed and I think we could together come up with some good ideas.
The situation in Russia is so very different from the reality in the west and I think we all have to realise this. We must realise that few Teke owners/breeders in the west have a good basic education on bloodlines and selection of Tekes and therefore have difficulties in evaluating breeding stock. We should really benchmark the work of education of Teke owners performed by MAAK with the work of many other succesful breeds that flourish outside their home country.

22. Darya10/04/2006 01:47:35
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you very much for your reply, Jessica. I intended to purchase Dominik, so I can use him for stud with other horses as well as breeding with my mare. She's got excellent bloodlines- perfect, all the better I'll have a good chance of getting a better foal. I intend to breed him with my mare, so I do not axe his breeding career before it has even started. No one is going to be interested in him, if I do not think he is even good enough for my mare. As a small breeder, I can not afford that. I can understand all the good wishing, but we have got to look at things realistically. There is very few people out here in the west to be able to afford things you are on about. I'm very hopeful, that give us a few years, we might grow and afford better things. Big studs in Russia didn't grow one night after some good rain either. The west is harder cos things here are just so much more expensive. I think we need breeders who both understand the culture of the breed and the country the horses come from and have a good idea about standards, and also understand how the west works too. I want to breed typical Tekes, as there is more than enough good sport horses here. I consider there is a niche for Tekes similar of the one of Arabians. I'm sorry, but again, we must look at things realistically. And Dominik is approved for breeding by MAAK, so if Leonid is not happy, he can go and tell them, although I believe this is not what the real problem is.

23. Leonid10/04/2006 02:01:02
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Jessica, you are the best. My possition is very simple. Anybody can use any horse in the breeding. It is his bussines, his risk, his market. It is possible to educate somebody, if this somebody wants do it.

24. Leonid10/04/2006 02:09:33
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

I can add only. Oynam (Maxud-Opera) is brilliant mare, possible one of the best in Europe. Such level of horses is not for simple good keeping. Oynam needs exelent Stallion, such like Karakoysu.

25. Darya10/04/2006 02:35:51
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

I'm happy you like the mare, but good horses are not only the privelege of big breeders, and small ones more certainly need good horses to do a good job. I am thasnkful for your advice, as I said before, I will keep that in mind, I'm considering to breed her with a different stallion for a second season, but this one will be Dominik, and I'm very eager to see his first baby, than we will judge who's worth what. Thank you for your advice and concearn once again.

26. Blanca10/04/2006 04:51:29

In my opinion, one of the big problems we have in the West –at least, in Europe- is that we don't have enough knowledge when mating our horses. That gives a somehow poor offspring, which in general is not as impressive as their parents. So while you can find some good horses of first (imported) generation , the "European" generation is not as typey as their sire/mare. In this regard, I really appreciate the opinion of experimented AT people.

Having said so, I'm very excited to see the first products of the recent imports to Germany and of course, yours, Darya!

27. Leonid10/04/2006 05:16:52
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Blanca, it is been, becourse new breeders is fall in love with horses. But the Love is not good adviser in the breeding.

28. Darya10/04/2006 05:51:27
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you very much, Blanca, I am very excited, and slightly nervous, of course, cos this is so important for me now. And you have got to be in love with the horses, to be mad enough to buy them for a tidy little sum (for some people, from some scary Russia as well), specially that there is not much known about them and their performance and there is so many issues surrounding the breed and the breeding. That is the difference between big studs, where people take up breeding as profession, and small studs, where people are mostly driven by passion, otherwise they would be mad to buy some weird Akhal Teke horse. There are but very few horse "factories", as they call them in Russia here in the West. They are but the remains of the soviet structure, where everything had to be industrial style. I do appreciate the professionalism of the big farms, but my oppinion is that quite often because of the number of the horses they have, not a lot of horses get individual approach and, quite often, lack health care and training. Therefore I agree there should be communication between professionals and enthusiasts, without bullying or calling horses names, as we both need each other. This is for the sake of the breed becoming recognized and appreciated all around the world. Otherwise the breed will continue to suffer.

29. Jessica 10/04/2006 11:38:22

Darya,
There has been and will be top class horses produced by small and big breeders. The quality of the horses from one stud farm is not determined by the size of the stud farm. A horse factory or as it is called here in the US a breeding mill, is a place where horses are produced with the only goal to accumulate a quantity of horses and not a quality. This method is applied by small and large breeders.
It is very limiting to generalise within a breed and dismiss bigger breeders as producers without heart and consider small breeders better and more caring.
The product of the breeder (the horse itself) will tell you more than a flashy website and marketing buzz words.
A quality Teke (type and bloodlines), built to function as a riding horse, in good condition, trained according to his age, that is trusting with people obviously comes from a good breeder that has been doing his selection, raising and training properly.
We all know that love makes you blind =). What Leonid means with falling in love with your horses is the well known saying in horse breeding, "do not fall in love with your breeding stock" which means that you should re-evaluate your selections continously in an objective way, this does not mean that you do not care for your horses or that you are not passionate about the breed.
The horse market in the west is gigantic and the best horses in the world when it comes to speed, jumping, dressage and beauty are bred here.
If we want to make the Teke breed interesting here we have to make sure that we present this multibillion market with top class horses from the Teke breed, there are already millions of mediocre horses here.
The concept "approved by MAAK" does not exist more than the fact that the horse is registered as a pure bred. MAAK does not work with any quality concepts, it is up to each and every breeder to make the selections and get started with a breeding program. The Akhal-Teke breed is probably one of the cheapest breed to get started with in Europe and the USA as anyone can use any registered pure bred in breeding and the price of the Tekes start very low. The knowledge about the breed is very limited and few Tekes that are in the west have the quality to attract the serious horse breeders/owners. This, in my opinion is due to the lack of serious work with breed improvement in the west. The reason to why we have no serious work with breed improvement in the west is that those engaged in the associations cannot look further than the horses they have in their own backyard. And will do next to anything to make sure that their own, in far to many cases, mediocre breeding programs are not threatened. And no one is happier than MAAK about this because their premium goal is to protect Russian breeding and their own profits made from Russian breeding.

30. Leonid10/04/2006 12:27:45
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Even not protect Russian breeding.

31. Darya10/04/2006 12:41:45
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Ok, we will sit and wait for a person with a big sack of money to come out and put the breed right. Anyone?

32. Jessica 10/04/2006 13:08:01

That is not what I said. There are already breeders with literary sacks of money in this breed, I mean that we need good breeders in this breed that understand how to breed quality horses.
The open discussion on the state of the breed and how to work for improvement is very much needed and I have never said that we should sit down and wait for anything. That is a strategy that will defenitely lead to a null result. On the other hand we have to work harder, but in order to define the goal we will have to be open and honest about the present situation. If you are serious about this breed, you will probably find out if you are after your "honey moon", I do hope that you will realise the need for an open, constructive dialogue and the need for continuous improvement.
I could have chosen to be insulted by your interpretation of my work and my communications as "sit down and wait" but I have decided to not being insulted by peoples remarks, I merely realise the difficulties in cross-cultural communications. So Darya, do you really think that the sit down and wait strategy is a serious contribution to the work with this breed?

33. Heather Mahoney10/04/2006 13:18:06

It has been interesting to read the passionate contributions of everyone to this conversation. First and foremost, I think we must remember that the conversation would not get so inflamed if those involved were not passionate about this breed, and it is that passion that will support the continued development of the breed.
That said however, I agree with Leonid that love is not the best judge of breeding stock. But with that in mind, by giving breeding rights to any all and stallions that come about from educated or uneducated breeders, you run the risk of compromising the quality of the akhal-teke breed. (And I am NOT just talking about ball-counting... I'm talkng type and style). It is well and good to say it is every individual's responsibility to find what they consider suitable breeders. But western interest in Akhal-Tekes (which Jessica rightly points out can be a multi-billion dollor market) WILL wain if low quality or even mediocre AT's become so prevelant to western eyes that they obscure the "real thing" available in smaller quantities. With a breed as rare as the AT it is MORE important to ensure the quality of breeding stock, because western investors are less likely to have been exposed to exceptional individuals. We have all seen so-so warmbloods all over the place, but we can easily see world-class examples on TV, and those that can afford them know where to go. If you want to promote AT's you have to get some fabulous animals out there to attract attention, so people know the quality that the breed is capable of producing.
Now, I know MAAK might disagree with me, but this is only benefited through breeder approval tests or grading, like that used for some warmbloods, or the Keurings held for Friesian horses (my other equine love). These events expose interested investors to the very best the breed has to offer, and provide motivation to breeders to really focus on breed improvement over producing quantity.
Darya: I can sympathize with you on not being able to afford the very best horses. I have worked with OTHER people's horses worth hudreds of thousands, but I am a teacher. Worse, I am a teacher in a state where the salary is $6000 less than the national average. I love being a teacher, and the low salary is the price I pay for wanting to remain in academia, which is my passion. I will not be purchasing a $100K horse anytime soon. But the quality of the breed is important enough to me, that I will spend what is necessary to have a higher than average quality animal when the time comes. And it doesn't mean that through passion, determination and self-education we can't produce animals on par with the biggest studs in Russia.
I think I could keep talking, but your eyes must be tired from my typing, which has gone on to long...

34. Leonid10/04/2006 13:21:09
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Jessica, look before. Darya desided to breed this breed like exotic sound horse.

35. Darya10/04/2006 14:37:12
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you, Heather, for your comments. I do not wish to sound miserable, or uneducated about the breed (after all, I was offered a completely different mare, but I had a look at all the available options, and seem to have done a good choice, since she deserved such high remarks from Leonid). What bothers me is you abstract talking, it gets frustrating for me, as people seem to disagree with my choice of a stallion, but do not say, why. We need to talk, and discuss, but discussions like this are just a waste of time, since to me, such a silly person, it is still largely unclear, what things you take into account when giving this or that advice. I have never heard of Karakoisu, so can I even see his pedigree? Someone got a link? Why should I jump into this advice, when I have never even seen the horse? I said I will look into it, but the reply I got was one of breeding mules. I understand your desire to attract more buyers to the AT. Let me put it this way. Where I live now just couple miles away from me there are two big stud farms, both breed good warmblood horses (hannoverians and so on). All of them are generally cheaper, than mine costed me to buy and import. Now to a traditional, and generally snobbish British eye, Tekes look weird, even the best Teke. I've showed them pictures and saw a lot of people's reaction. So what do you think a lot of people will do when they look for a sport horse? Go next door and buy a Hannoverian. Bragging on about Absent does not impress anyone any more, that was a long time ago. And there are no good achievers like that for a while now. Why don't you sell one of your wonderful sport Tekes to some professional, so we have a new Absent. You said there is plenty of people with money, let them help. People here do not run and buy the hat the queen wore last week, like they do run buying Tekes when Vladimir bought one in Russia. It doesn't work here this way.
I think what puts people off the breed as well, is that there is no proper standards and one expert tells you this horse is magnificent, and a different expert is saying that that horse is crap. This money driven attempts to create monopoly on the breed by different big breeders are really a laugh! You claim to be supporting and educating people, but all the people seem to get is criticism, rather than a proper advice. This only encourages people to go just look at their backyard, and create horrific average horses. Well done for that! Good job on improving the breed! And I was not dismissing big breeders as heartless, you can love the breed to your hearts content, but if you have got 100 horses, and only 5 people to look after them, you can only do so much. I know not all horse factories are like that, but a lot often are. Believe me I lived most of my life in Russia. In the end, I have only just brought my horses across here and you haven't even seen my offspring yet, is not it a bit early to criticise someone?

The only breed here that enjoys such breeding with big stables plenty of professional breeders and vets 24-7 is millions worth of thoroughbreds. I do look realistically at Tekes and have not got love making me blind. I don't think you will be selling Tekes for that price. All the other breeds are bred by smaller places, but there are standards and guidelines to follow, so the breeds do not suffer. All you seem to have done so far is bragging on about bad MAAK and no proper work towards actually sorting something out. It only confuses and puts people off. So we have got nothing better than MAAK, so it is recomendations of MAAK I'm going to follow, and breed class 1 mare to class 1 stallion, that has been recommended for breeding.

36. Heather Mahoney10/04/2006 15:26:01

Darya,
I can see that you are frustrated. Most importantly, YOU must be happy with the direction you are taking in your breeding program. Breed Oynam to Dom, and see how the foal turns out. You always have the option of breeding her to a different stallion, as Leonid suggested, later. I cannot comment on the mule comment, but advice from high caliber breeders cannot be discounted, even if it was not given in the most professional way. I do not know of the stallion in France, so I cannot comment on him, and your Dom is a handsome boy. There will always be bigger, better breeders than what we personally have out there, and suggesting as much is not an insult, although I can understand that the method of suggestion might be. As Jessica said, though, I think it is best in an international forum such as this blog to determine not to be insulted, as there are always culture misunderstandings to overcome.
As for your other concerns - I know Britain can be very warmblood oriented, but really we wouldn't want EVERYONE to be into Tekes, right? Who cares if someone does not like their look. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder," right. But I do think that the breed needs some performance promotion. I'd like to pursue endurance riding and dressage with an AT. We see AT's at the Tevis Cup, but with such famed endurance as I've read about I think we need to see some winning at the famous President's Cup in Dubai! So what do you think Leonid? You send me a strong horse, and I'll represent in Dubai! (I am teasing... no cultural misunderstandings please).
As for more breed education... my only advice... bug people. I know this sounds funny, but I am serious. No one is more responsible for your education (or lack thereof) than you. When Jessica had her open house my husband and daughter and I went and picked her and Todd's brain about breed lines, influential stallions, the politics of MAAK, their long-term goals, etc. and I still have so much to learn! If I could invite myself over more often I would. (Hide the Lakrits Te, Jessica!)
My point is that feeling victimized by your situation (even if a little justified) gets you nowhere but angry, and nothing comes of this. Trust me, it is hard to work your way up, and I can appreciate where you're coming from. I do not come from money or even horse people. My first horse job as a kid came because I lied that I had experience. This seems irresponsible now, but I may never have had all the wonderful opportunities that came my way. By college I had a live-in gig at a warmblood facility and got to handle stallions, breeding, marketing, management, etc. So where would I be without being a little pushy now and then?
So jump in! Email Leonid and ask why he recommends this stallion, and what specifically he dislikes about yours. If you don't like what you hear, forget about it, but takes what's useful and grow, cause everyone here has the same goal - to see the AT breed continue to improve and expand.

37. Darya10/04/2006 16:35:27
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you, Heather, it is nice to see some understanding here finally. Your words are very encouraging. This is exactly why I'm more interested in the beauty and the breed being exotic, alongside sporting achievements, as there are so many good sport horses in the world, and plenty in UK, I think there should be something special and different about the breed. One of the reasons I have gotten my stallion as well is for showing him and develop some sport career for him. I do not want to say that he will be an Olympic winner, but one has got to give people a chance. If we do achieve something, that will all be the better for the breed. I know my mare has got wonderful bloodlines, but I'm very limited with what I can do with a 7yo broodmare, that has not been backed. I'm not trying to get everyone to love the breed, but to get people interested, I need to be out there showing off and participating in competitions. The stallion is much more suited for that work. The breeding business and breeding goals are all very important, but in countries like UK we face the challange of promoting the breed as well, and this is the big concearn. I fully understand, that incorrect promotion, as well as bad breeding, can cause serious damage to the interest in the breed, and I do take this all very seriously. May be that is why this has turned into a bit of an unpleasant situation. Breeders like me face so many challanges, like educating ourselves and learning to promote the breed and all this art of breeding. I really wish there was more support and encouragement for us. You never know, there could be even some improvement than.

I did not wish to have become insulting to anyone, I do my best to stay polite. If I have failed in that, I am sorry.

I felt very warm, when I read about your youth. This is very familiar to me, as I was sorting my own life out since I was 16.

Thank you very much once again.

38. Nadja10/04/2006 17:47:42
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

Darya.
<br>&lt;br&gt;If you will interest Karakajsu, ask me about him. My friend (French) has asked me to buy for her a stallion. And I have bought for her Karakajsu, choosing from many offered stallions of line Posman. Leonid was mistaken. He is not son of Gajgysyz. He is the son of Lamart. He is the grandson of Gajgysyz.
<br>&lt;br&gt;Also do not listen to anybody. Do, how you want. There are no 100 % improving stallions. From each stallion (even the best) are born not typical and simple horses. And sometimes from very very much an average stallion are born magnificent horses from different mares. It is a lot of such examples.
<br>&lt;br&gt;I think idiocy to pay 30000-80000 euros for a two-year-old horse. Or for five years old. The horse, who is able nothing in sports and has no children. But in the some studfarm is such practice. And they successfully sell horses under such prices. Though these horses are is far from the best of Russia or the World. And the best horses of Russia (World champions and Russia) have been sold in due time for lower prices. The main on such expensive sales is a good marketing. And still main, even the worse horse to praise, as something unusually good, super typical, etc. Surprisingly, but this rule works not only in Russia and Europe, but now and in America too.
<br>&lt;br&gt;Fortunately, I never had question: horses or money. To find for a horse the good house, for me it is more important, than to receive money. And I am happy, that my horses - not toys for "rich" persons.

39. Leonid10/05/2006 01:25:51
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Bravo, I have not words. Proletarians of all countries unite!

40. Darya10/05/2006 02:40:59
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Thank you very much Nadja, it is very nice of you to stick your head out for me, as you can see, it is very dangerous to do that sort of thing in this blog. That is the main reason for my confusion, as I see sons from same horses being completely different and I can't stop wondering, whether breeders really know, what is going to come out, or is it just try and see and a little bit of prediction. I would certainly like to know, what other good stallions are in the area, as I would like to try the mare with different stallions over time. It is encouraging, because looking at the related horses to my mare, they all seem to be very nice horses, a lot of them are elite and nicely valued, so this bloodline of hers seems to be very good at producing lovely offspring.

Leonid, you really need to learn to be polite, and than educate people, as people do not learn, when you are being abusive. Although, you can not teach an old dog new tricks, as they say here.

41. Leonid10/05/2006 02:49:05
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Darya, forget my name.

42. Darya10/05/2006 03:45:34
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

with pleasure

43. Jessica10/05/2006 08:15:04

Darya,
Breeding horses is not like baking cookies, there are no recipe that you can follow that will automatically give you a certain type of horse. If you really want to enjoy the wonderful art and science of breeding horses I would warmly recommend you to educate yourself on basic genetics and to look for a mentor that has a long experience in breeding horses. The mentor does not have to work with the same breed, it is even better to look for someone who works with other breeds, that will give you an insight in how other breed associations work as well.
The more you know about breeding the more interesting and fun it is! I also think that in order to really enjoy or be able to contribute to discussions on breeding one must have an understanding about concepts such as selection, improvement, evaluation, breeding goals, breeding plans, genes, hereditability, traits.
If you seriously want to promote the Teke breed, you will encounter a lot of horse people, many of them with a lot of experience and knowledge about breeding, raising and training horses, if you cannot, in a professional way, speak for your product, in your case the stallion you are offering to the public for breeding as well as the service as broker of Tekes you will get a much harder time than you have had on this blog. The horse world is very competetive and I think the best word of advice I can give you at the moment is to get to know your horses, to study the European/English market of Tekes and other breeds that are comparable to the Teke breed. I have also been a young enthusiastic horse girl who wanted a lot of things with my horses and my riding, I must say that I have been very lucky to always been in the hands of very wise and experienced but also very strict mentors. I do hope you can take this as a good advice and that you continue to read this blog as some of the content here is educational.
You have to be prepared for that not everyone loves your stallion like you do. If horse breeding was about following a given recipe maybe it would be so but it is not.
If you want my or others advice you can turn this dialogue to a more constructive and educational by telling me what you think your stallion's strong points and weak points are and for what kind of mares you would recommend him. Also tell me what more about his pedigree in the first three generations, what have the parents done, are they improvers and in if so what did they improve?
These are questions you will get from mare owners this spring if you advertise your stallion for breeding, so let's get you prepared for those questions now.
In the meantime I will make a list of the more than 20 Teke stallions in Europe that are of the same quality or above your stallion. Some of the have a known BV and some of them like your stallion will have an EBV based on their pedigree, siblings, etc.

44. Jessica 10/05/2006 10:29:45

Nadya,
You describe perfectly the, for at least me, the schizofrene situation within this breed based on an chaotic mix of of breeding ideologies and home made recipes for breed success on the paper.
The ideology that you should breed everything as you never know what everything might produce, is mixed with an totally unpredictable "judging system" performed by 1 (one) person where the breeding value classification, height over withers etc is changing faster than you can travel in a rollercoaster.
This at the same time as every horse with a paper from MAAK really has the same breeding value (as they are pure bred). This at the same time as when the only requirement (protection of the Teke trademark) is a DNA proof of parentage at the same time every horse that is registered is "inspected" and points are given. These inspection are so "state-of-the-art" that they are performed sometimes from pictures and sometimes from live horses. The owners/breeders are not always aware of that it is done.
And what is more convenient when one realise that we have to many elite graded horses percentagewise in the population you just take out pen paper and eraser and change height-over-the-withers and other points so that the elite gradings can be adjusted.
What a genius that came up with this method, it is both efficient and cheap.
Really in this breed who needs a horse when everything is performed on the paper! Actually a great selling point for the not so rich people that want a horse but cannot afford to feed it!
I'm suprised that not one single person engaged in population genetics in horses in the west has come up with these revolutionary ideas yet.
And, to really make everything more logical and aimed towards creating a super breed, the world championships are held at the same place every year to make sure that only horses from one country in the world can become world champions!
To summarise, if you have a paper you have a Teke, if you have a Teke breed it, because your horse might produce a world champion or elite horse, but make sure that if you want a world champion breed it in Russia.
And if you want an elite horse, be prepared to see its point go up and down and up and down, but, does it really matter, as every Teke has the same potential, so why bother, really.
Let's hope that more breeds adopt these strategies soon though, so that the Teke breed can compete on the same level as other breeds that are run by stupid people who cares for such details as type, conformation, fertility, rideability and temperament, you know unnecessary stuff that no one is interested in anyways.

45. Darya10/05/2006 14:17:58
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Jessica, this is so exciting, I am actually getting some proper advice here, I am very happy. I must say that you have been truly lucky to find good mentors and people to guide you, it is very nice of you to be understanding to others as well.

Now some things you are saying I have thought of before and has started working on. I am researching and reading a lot about breeding and genetics, but this is a long process and I think you will agree, that you never stop learning things like this that are art. In a way it is like learning language, you never stop learning. I am looking at finding someone to help me along with learning. As I mentioned before, there is two big studs next to us (Bucks is very much a horsey county). Well I am planning to invite myself to them and see what I can learn and whether I get kicked out or not. May be there will be someone there willing to teach me a thing or two.

When I just have found this blog, I did take a lot of time and read pretty much all that there is here to read. I did find some things very helpful, while some things seemed to have contradicted each other. Let me just tell you my oppinion on MAAK, without any hard feelings. I perfectly well understand that there are so many problems and agree with that. But knowing how a lot of things work in Russia, talking about them is very unlikely going to get you anywhere. I know in the west they keep on to politicians or government, and things eventually change. Pitifully, it does not work like this in Russia. Mostly there are people who suit themselves, and the rest just have to get along. I was wondering if there is a way to create some unified and widely recognised system and association in the west. People could probably use that system alongside with MAAKs, and it will be clearer for people in the West, what is what. That is the only idea about that issue that I have, I hope you do not mind me sharing.

About my stallion, I can tell you some things straight away, but I will certainly work on finding out as much as I can. My stallion's dam- Djamna, 1993 (Melekush-Dogadka), line Arab, ellite graded, conformation- 8,0, typicalness- 7,9. She was the daughter of Melekush (Muhtar-Kepgir) line Arab, in 1988 he has taken 3 place in one of the exibitions and was highly valued for his typicalness-9.6, conformation 7,0. He has had some very good offspring, like sire Zakhmet out of Zagadka, who is a high class prize winning dressage horse in Russia. His other son is Metman, who has competed in jumping (up to 130cm), taken 1 and 2nd prizes and has participated in endurance (60km). Metman's new owner is Anne Marie Rasch now, by the way. Djamna's grandparent (dam's sire) is Dornazarbek. My stallion's sire, Melezor (Gelishikli2-Dosh2), class 1, line Gelishikli, typicalness- 7,3, conformation- 7,5. He has got good movements, and is a very strong horse, but seem to be just enjoying a stud career, and no sporting achievements :- He has got magnificent Dagestan as his grand sire. I think I need to find out more detail about Dornazarbek and Dagestan, as I remember them being mentioned a lot and lovely pictures, but am not sure what they have actually done and their particular role in breeding. I have noticed that they appear a lot in the top Teke's pedigrees. If someone wants to educate me on that matter, they are welcome. So my Dominik's good points: colour, temperament, movement, soundness, i do like his high set neck with the lovely curve and typical "zatilok". Bad points: no foals yet, no sporting career(which I hope to change), not extremelly typical head (large eyes I think), his sire is not very much known, although there are some good horses in his pedigree as I described before. That's all I can think of straight away. You are welcome to correct me or add coments on, I am still learning. I will not get upset, unless you call him a mule. I do love him, but not blindly. I can not help loving them, but I have to look realistically at them, otherwise I will not get anywhere.

I hope I did not bore you with this novel and you have actually read till the end of it.

46. Jessica 10/05/2006 17:28:19

Nadya or Darya,
I have not been able to confirm the competition results for Zakhmet (dressage) or Metman (130 cm jumping, 60 km endurance) can you please let me know place, date, class and level (local, regional,national or international) and rider for those to horses so that I can add them to performance results as soon as I have them verified.

47. Heather Mahoney10/06/2006 07:41:05

Leonid,
So you are a fan of Karl Marx? While I have the highest respect for you and your contribution to the Akhal-Teke, I would think that mocking other bloggers as Proletarians would be beneath you. I am sincere when I say it must be nice for you to have been born in to the bourgeoisie, but are you suggesting that those of that are middle class and may only ever own two or three Akhal-Tekes, as opposed to entire stud, are less worthy to share int his forum? Do not forget that Gaius Marius AND Cicero were both Plebeians.

48. Leonid10/06/2006 09:51:15
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Heather, I don't remember where are this Gaius Marius and Cicero raced? What results?
Please read it agein:"Fortunately, I never had question: horses or money. To find for a horse the good house, for me it is more important, than to receive money. And I am happy, that my horses - not toys for "rich" persons."
Everybody desides himself who is he.
Certanly, I want and I try do it to sell my akhalteke horses to rich persons, becourse this horses are luxery class goods. This is truth. This is historical fact.

49. 10/06/2006 11:01:37

I am going to have to stick my head out here, guys... I wasn't going to get involved but I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on. I don't think Leonid called any specific horse a mule! He just made a suggestion as to what he, as a breeder, considers to be a good match for a mare whose pedigree he, as a breeder, holds in great esteem. It was just a free piece of advice. I took it to be a compliment to the mare, not a criticism of Dominic. Darya's choice of the stallion should, of course, be respected. She told me she went to the stud, was offered a different stallion but really liked Dominic and felt he was the horse she wanted to buy. That's very important, since she is the one who will ride him and even if it was partly an emotional decision, it's still a valid one. To be honest, I fail to see a contradiction: it's hardly feasible to take Oinam to France now as she has just arrived in the UK but in time it might become a possibility, provide the owner of Karakaisu is interested. Karakaisu looks impressive to my non-breeder's eye and in any case, trying to use different breeding couples within Europe must be a good thing. After all Stavropol and Shael regularly exchange stallions, so why not in Europe? As to proletarians, this is a cultural reference, Heather, I am struggling to explain it and it's probably not worth it. Some of us have lived in the USSR and there is a baggage which goes with it. Selling horses for a lot of money in Russia is possible at the moment because of the unique economic conditions. It's nothing to do with them having or not having good homes. Not all Shael horses are sold for mega bucks but market is market, and around Moscow at the moment there are some very wealthy people. Being able to sell horses for a lot of money allows breeders to invest in their stud operations and improve the breed. There are lots of horses, not just Teke, sold cheaply who do not end up in good homes. There is no direct connection there.

50. Heather Mahoney10/06/2006 11:25:50

No offense taken, and I think you are very correct on your points. Really I was teasing Leonid a little bit, and only half serious, but I am learning it is best not to try and be funny when you are translating across cultures. I cannot pretend to understand the social system in the former USSR, but here to call someone a Proletarian is to insinuate that they are an uneducated and unintelligent person that must always be a laborer because they are not good for much else. I am sure this is NOT what Leonid was implying, which is why I was pointing out that in ancient Rome, Marius and Cicero (a very famous general and orator) began life as Plebeians - the poor peasant class, but rose to lasting fame through their intellect.
Absolutely you should market your horses to the best class you can, as this is only good for the breed, and con provide critical support for your stud.
In reference to baggage, I can understand this. It is sometimes difficult for me not to be a little prickly about class, as my horse experience, as I said, has come from working for others and started with me mucking stalls in exchange for a few lessons... that's a LOT of stalls for a LITTLE lesson time. You start to feel taken advantage of, and in America we do not have apprenticeships readily available for would-be equestrians. If your parents cannot pay for very expense private lessons, you may never have the opportunity to learn to the quality you desire. This is heartbreaking in a way I cannot express.
Now that I have graduated from college, I am a teacher, and my husband will be starting school to become a college professor. I am looking for a master for professional lessons for the FIRST TIME. I have ridden my whole life, worked horses, worked cows, etc. But at 24 years old, I am only now able to look for professional training that I can provide for myself. It would be nice if opportunity was congruent with intellect and desire, but this is sadly not the case.

51. Darya10/06/2006 12:42:23
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Heather,
Proletarians of all countries- unite! is an old and very well known in Russia slogan communists used to use for their propaganda. This is used a lot nowadays and more intended as a joke/proverb. It is nothing to do with someone being low class and so on.

I thank you very much all of you guys for your concearn on the matter, do not worry, I do my best to learn and I will keep the best things in mind. I still think it is inappropriate for anyone to use offensive words here like mule. As you see, I do not mind criticism/discussion, but I want it to be to the point. Calling a horse a mule does not give me any idea on a horse's particular faults, and therefore, is not educational at all, but only upsetting.

As for horses, I think it is up to the owner to decide who and for how much to sell their horses to, and it is up to the buyer to figure it out, what is worth what. It is their right and responsibility.

52. Heather Mahoney10/06/2006 12:54:58

Darya,
My Latin teacher used to say to our class "It's always a good day when you learn something new" at the beginning of every class. Thank you for sharing perspective on the slogan, as I'm pleased to have learned something new! I had not heard that before in that context, and always appreciate hearing thoughtful explanations from a different cultural/ethnic perspective.
Enjoy your weekend!
Heather

53. Leonid10/06/2006 13:01:52
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

No one time I did not named mull for horse. I said that Darya can breed even donkeys if she wants. It is your right, she can cover Oynam by donkey, or breed donkeys. Maria can confirm my words. I said this after agressia ageinst my advance.
E basta.

54. Maria10/06/2006 13:50:45

Heather, as Darya said: <Proletarians of all countries - Unite!> is an old Soviet slogan. It even goes back to the 3rd International, if I remember right from my Marxism lessons .

Leonid used it because there was a suggestion made that selling horses for a lot of money is, somehow, reprehensible. Bolsheviks regarded anyone with more money than anyone else a class enemy. Communists worldwide still hold the same views. "Money" is a dirty word to a Proletarian.

Plebeian is a different concept. It means low class, uneducated, lack of "breeding" in a human. A nobleman can become a proletarian, but he cannot become a Plebeian. We have a famous politician in England who is born a Lord but is so left-wing you won't believe it. He is the sort who will tell you that we should all be equal and that selling an Akhal-Teke to a "new Russian" is morally wrong.

As to being able to afford good lessons... you are a lucky woman, Heather! I am 44 and it's only now that I feel justified to spend money on myself in this way.

55. Darya10/06/2006 15:08:19
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Donkey- osyol
Mule- ishak

56. Leonid10/07/2006 00:20:30
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Look dictionary.

57. Darya10/07/2006 03:16:17
Homepage: http://www.avatstud.com

Return me the favour, forget me as well.

58. Heather10/08/2006 18:05:26

Maria,
Thank you for the perspective - truly. And really, I shouldn't be spending such money on myself, but I am lucky to have a good husband that thinks I have waited long enough, and should invest in myself... or maybe I just beat him into agreeing with me. I am just teasing. The problem for me currently is there are so many people in the US that claim to teach "dressage" but it is not true classical dressage as you find in Europe primarily. Jessica and I had this conversation a while back. I am looking for training up to haute ecole, and a good master for such discipline is VERY hard to find within any reasonable distance. I willing even to drive over an hour, but even then, training is hard

59. Jessica10/09/2006 12:11:29

Heather,
I'm looking to for good trainers for horses and kids always, it takes time though and the only way to find out if they are what you are looking for is to go and see them. It seems like I have found a good trainer for jumping, he and his wife are from Ireland and has been competing on high level show jumping for many, many years.
I keep my eyes open for good dressage trainers, I will let you know immediately once we find an interesting trainer, maybe we can go and check them out together!