1. Petra10/03/2005 08:38:48
Homepage: http://www.mujweb.cz/www/akhalteke

We were in Germany, group of Czech AT fans, unfortunately without horses.
As you, Jessica, wrote, I was also afraid, how these two judges will judge AT breed, but I was very surprised. It was competent, according me more objective than sometimes in Russia. I made table with results, if you are interested, I can send it to you.
The problem is that at this moment there are few AT judges and as I know, almost all of them are from Russia. On German Championship was planned to judge Mr. Klimuk, I was very looking forward, because he has knowledge and his comments seems to me very objective. Don■t you know why he didn■t come there?

2. Jessica 10/03/2005 09:40:12

Petra. I think it would be very appreciated if you added the list of results as a comment here. I'm happy to hear that you found that the judges had integrity and did a good job. I still though, doubt that they have the knowledge about the breed to give valuable input to breeders. It is a risk to use judges that are not breed specialists as they have other references than breed specialists and might recommend animals that are not in line with the breed plan. Mr Alexander Klimuk, who always judges with integrity and who has a very deep knowlegde about the breed that he generously shares, had other engagements in Russia.
You do have several Akhal-Tekes in your country now, do you plan any breed shows?

3. Leonid10/03/2005 10:33:48
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

We must have certificate judjes, which have our trust. At the beginning most of them will be from Russia ofcourse.

4. Blanca10/03/2005 12:03:45

I'm not going to "judge" the quality/condition of the judges, but I think it is a shame that "real" judges were not invited or didn't come and this resulted in many people from other European countries - and even from Germany!- not bringing their horses.

At the end, it was a German show and not a truly European event...AT politics jeopardize the promotion of the breed...

Pity because the organisation was brilliant and the place, one of the most beautiful horse facilities I've ever seen

5. Jessica 10/03/2005 13:02:13

Blanca. The need to work out a system for ackrediting judges, rules for judges as well as an independent panel of judges for this breed is urgent. The goal would be to have a few approved judges for the next showing season. Working out this panel would mean a great step forward for the Akhal-Teke breed.

6. Petra10/03/2005 13:40:32
Homepage: http://www.mujweb.cz/www/akhalteke

Hello Jessica,
yes, we plan to make AT show next year. And of course we are solving the problem with judges. Do you know what are the criteria and conditions to become "official" judge?


Here are the results from Gut Ising:
Foals■category (colts and fillies together):
1. filly without name (Gorlik-Etoile, Pasyl)
2. Akhal Aktau, filly (Daimir-Anjsha, Melgun)
3. Ashinta, filly (Taran-Alpara, Pasyl)
4. Meletay, colt (Taran-Mel, Kara Burgut)

Category of one and two years old fillies:
(only one filly in category):
1. Monja, born 2003 (Taran-Mel, Kara Burgut)

Category of one and two years old colts:
(only one colt in category):
1. Murelli Shael, born 2003 (Gazyr Shael-Aikhanum, Derbent)

Category of three and four years old fillies and mares:
1. Elisheva, born 2001 (Mazan-Khilga, Kara Burgut)
2. Gulscha, born 2001 (Mazan-Guldese, Serasker)
3. Agma, born 2002 (Melok-Ayla, Melgun)

Category of three and four years old colts and stallions:
1. Soykan, born 2001 (Syrat-Marussia, Melgun)
2. Gawani, born 2002 (Gardash-Marika, Perkhat)
3. Karakum, born 2002 (Kargach-Amira, Melgun)
4. Aramis, born 2002 (Shamborant-Ateschgjah, Melgun)

Category of five years old and older mares:
1. Regata, born 1992 (Gaidamak-Rena, Adat)
2. Anjsha, born 1995 (Melgun-Amara, Ararat)
3. Etoile, born 1993 (Pasyl-Enegul, Djagitai)
Other mares who participated in this category:
Alpara, born 1997 (Pasyl-Aliza, Kerzi)
Elma, born 1997 (Mamuk-Enegul, Azdepel)
Mel, born 1994 (Kara Burgut- Mikuna, Melgun)
Pobeda, born 1997 (Polot-Drakhma, Dornazarbek)

Category of five and older stallions:
1. Tokhtamysh, born 1999 (Khalif-Tyazegul, Kerzi)
2. Askari, born 1997 (Kara Burgut-Aksioma, Kaltaman)
3. Daimir, born 1993 (Dorkush-Djungaria, Garem)
Other stallions who participated in this category:
Ashbad, 1998 (Lakmus-Aigyz, Gaigysyz)
Dendon, 1995 (Dagdan-Dolina, Arslan)
Gay, 1988 (Gektor-Malaysia, 904 Melekush)
Gunesh, 1988 (Kerzi-Gerda, Garem)
Melok, 1995 (Kara Burgut-Mikuna, Melgun)
Taran, 1987 (Telekush 2 - Kelkush, Angar)

Category of working (riding) stallions:
1. Yalantushkhan, 2000 (Orlan-Yangylay, Galkan)
2. Kipr, 1998 (Ajan 2-Karta, Turali)
3. Mikaron, 1997 (Kara Burgut-Mikuna, Melgun)
Other horses in this category:
Arschin, 1991 (Polot-Arfa, Ametist)
Darym, 1999 (Makat-Dagmara, 1076 Melekush)

7. Jessica 10/03/2005 14:33:52

Thank you for the results Petra. A little bit more than 30 horses in the show was not bad for being the first time I would say.
As you know the managment of the Akhal-Teke breed is more or less a one-woman-show today. I have asked for a list of ackredited judges since 1997 but so far I have seen no list. If you decide to go ahead with a breed show with results that will be official for your association and you country you are free to choose. The last show I arranged as a president for the Swedish Akhal-Teke Association we used the team of Alexander Klimuk and Leonid Babyaev. I can warmly recommend them as judges as they are very knowledgeable and very willing to share their knowledge with the horse owners. The first show that was arranged in Swede we used T. Ryabova and G. Kyarizov. Geldy was a very good judge for shows as well, very knowledgeable and a true enthusiast for the breed. I would also recommend to add an ackredited Czech judge that could be trained as breed specialist for future missions in Czech republic and other European countries.
Hopefully you have followed the blog about the MAAK revolution and have seen that the question of a panel of judges for the breed is of very high priority for breeders not only in Europe.

8. Leonid10/03/2005 23:46:08
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Judge is person wich has trust and authority of other members of society. I think it is only one criterion of choice.
Jessica thank you very much fo your words.

9. Suzanne10/04/2005 11:08:11

Hi Jessica
I also attended the show. Mr. Klimuk has cancelled his trip to Germany 4 days bevor the show. He has problems at the Stavropol Stud. Do you know that it will get privat!!! The German Judge is involved since the begining of the German Breed. His father is every year at the Polling event. Also the Usbekian Judge has well known the Tekes. He is German speaking, sofar a great plus for Germany. It was sade that the Benelux Countries didn't came with horses to this wonderful place.

10. Nadja10/05/2005 18:42:50
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

I was in the Championship of Europe in Germany. I had an opportunity to speak the comments to the German judge during refereeing. I photographed horses on an arena near to judges, and German judge frequently asked me, as to the representative from Russia. Tatyana Rjabova asked me to judge too in this Championship. But it is not fair, as there were horses from Russia from my friend. And for me it was important to make photos.
I can tell unequivocally, that the judge from Uzbekistan Kamal judged correctly. It well understands type AT, and in the ex-terrier. It on a regular basis visits Turkmenistan, buys there horses. Frequently comes to studfarm of Europe and Russia.
I had an opportunity to express to the German judge the opinion on horses during refereeing. For him it was very difficult to judge for the first time. It not understands all in AT horses. For example Tohtamysh has a magnificent slanting eye. But the German judge has told, that it is awful. We with Kamal for a long time explained, that it is very much appreciated in AT to breed.
I as have told, that disagree with refereeing in a category of three and four-year-old mares. Mare Gulishen was much better, than Elisheva. Elisheva has a short neck. But the German judge has considered, that Elisheva it is better with a short neck, than Gulishen with a long waist. But AT horses - long horses.
With other refereeing I agree. One of these days I shall try to hang out photos on the site that all of you could look on horses from Germany

11. Leonid10/06/2005 00:24:25
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Why we don't speak about judging of World Championship in Moscow? That was realy awful. We are breeders worked hardly whole year and get results of judging of diletants, which were collected by Ryabova. She is wise mother and she knows better what is good and what is bed for us. We are suckers yet.

12. Nadja10/06/2005 08:08:57
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

Leonid, and can tell surnames and names of those people which are able and can judge in the Championships??? What your nominees? Especially for the Championship of Russia and the World.

13. Leonid10/06/2005 08:30:20
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

It is problem of the expenses for invitations of Judges only. Principles of choice I discribed in the near by report. Now we have judges by such principle: "Are you here? Very good, let's go to judge"

14. Jessica 10/06/2005 10:12:40

The confidence in the people that judge our horses is very important. For the professional breeder your horses performances have a very big economical impact on your business. For the hobby breeder that feel that they invest all their extra time and extra money on their horses it is also very important that you feel that you have been judged fairly.
When you go to a breed show you are aware of that your horse will be judged for what it looks like and how it presents itself that day, you cannot redo the show one month later when you think your horse looks better, so most of the horse owners that take their horses to the show do prepare their horses very well for the breed show.
If you takeyour horse to a race or a show jumping competition you can "afford" to fail once because you know that there will be more racings and competitions the same year and you can work for performing better next time.
A person that takes on the responsability to judge other peoples work in form of their breedings or their purchased horses must be aware of the responsability they have towards the breed itself, eg to make sure that prospective breed improvers/best representatives for the breed are the winners, the person must also understand and respect the work of the breeder and the risk the breeder takes by going to the show.

If I show my horses I want the following criteria to be fulfilled:

1. When the show is announced the names, qualifications and by which oganisations the judges are approved by must be openly declared with the propositions for the show. In that way I can decide whether the judge has the competence to judge my horses with integrity.
2. Judges must have enough competence and integrity to judge horses no matter of owner. In other words judges must be noncorruptable. This is very, very important.
3. In order to be competent to judge a breed you should be able to, at any time declare the breed standard and the breeding goals for the breed you judge. You must also have seen more horses of that breed than the average breeder in order to gain their trust.
4. The judge must have a basic knowledge in the conformation of a horse and what conformational faults that is grave or non grave for the specific breed they work with.

If a person do not fulfil these requirements they must have the integrity to say no thank you to judgeing other peoples horses.

An example of a judge without integrity is obviously one of the judges in Germany who asked people in the audience for help. As Nadja mentions in her comment the German judge had done.
I'm sure that Nadja could help out due to her knowledge as well as others in the audience too. But this is not how it is supposed to be, a judge with authority and competence judges by himself, without asking tha audience. If this is what happened I think the results should be deemed not valid.

Leonid brought up the issue of "guest judges" that is a common tradition in Russia. People that attend the show might be called up to participate in the judgeing, not because they are necessarely competent or approved but for other more obscure reasons.
I was once called in to judge in Moscow, I did fill in my papers but I never gave them to the committee because I felt that I was not competent enough to judge the breedings from some of the biggest stud farms in Russia, others would do that better.
Later on I understood why I really was asked to judge but that is story for another occassion.

I think that breeders and horse owners of Akhal-Tekes must be as tough and self confident as owners of other breeds and come together and demand qualified, competent and noncorruptable judges for fair play within this breed.

15. Leonid10/06/2005 10:45:22
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

It is not tradition of Russia, it is tradition of MAAK.

16. Jessica 10/06/2005 15:09:04

I do apologize for generalizing, I should of course have written Russian Akhal-Teke shows arranged by MAAK!

17. Leonid10/10/2005 00:50:54
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

By rights of MAAK champions of the world can't have participient in the regional rings like competitors. In this show Tohtamysh and Yalantushkhan must be leave out.

18. Nadja10/10/2005 07:10:28
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

The championship of Europe is not the Championship from MAAK. It was organized by German association and the German breeding union. Therefore Tohtamysh and Jalantushhan could participate there, participated and have won. But these titles will stay with them, just as results of all other championships and exhibitions.
ALL IN ENGLISH
Results and photoreportage from the Championship of Europe.
http://www.akhalt-service.ru/foto/index.php?page=1&topic_id=19
Results and photoreportage from the WorldChampionship.
http://www.maak.ru/events.php3?id=43
Results and photoreportage from the Championshipof Russia.
http://www.maak.ru/events.php3?id=44

19. Leonid10/10/2005 07:39:40
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

If this ring was not championship of MAAK, it can't named "Championship of Europe". In this case, that was private event only. In such situation we can create Championship in every village every month. Official status can be from MAAK only. If you are not agree, you have one way only to change situation inside MAAK.

20. Nadja10/10/2005 08:12:51
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

As far as I know. Show or the Championship in Sweden on which you were the judge, too was not from МААК. Therefore about what we speak? Any organization has the right to carrying out of the championships or show. The German union - not members МААК. Therefore they do that want. But they have lost many people which have not brought horses as there was no official status from МААК and judges from Russia.

21. Leonid10/10/2005 10:41:12
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

In this case it must named "by version of Pupkin's Company".

22. Leonid10/10/2005 11:31:04
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Championship of Sweden was of Sweden, It was not Europinian event.

23. Nadja10/10/2005 18:36:36
Homepage: http://www.akhalt-service.ru/

The Russian horses participate in the world championship only. In what sense of a word the World?

24. Jessica 10/10/2005 20:56:26

Leoind and Nadja you both have made relevant comments and it is very interesting to read your thoughts on how to work with the progress of the breed.
I have a European view on the matter and was and am involved in the Euro-Teke project that was founded only to promote the Akhal-Teke breed in Europe as well as breed improvement by arranging breed shows, the goal was to arrange a European Championship in 2005. We had contacted every European AT association as well as the Russian and MAAK, they are the same person so to say.
The MAAK has no jurisdiction in countries outside Russia, the countries can arrange shows as much as they like and call the show winners what they want as long as they follow the rules of their countries.
In Sweden we have had our horses graded for studbook inscription by the only approved person we have ever been offered by VNIIK to perform breed gradings that will decide the "studbook" value for the horse.
We have also, for the public interest, promotion of the breed and service to the breeders arranged shows with rings where the horses have been ranked but not graded.
In the shows we could have hired Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck to do judge and they would have been official anyways as the Swedish Akhal-Teke Association are approved by the Swedish government to work with the Teke breed in Sweden.
We did not hire Mickey Mouse and Co though, as we wanted the best people we could get to help us with the work of improvement of the breed and judge our horses as well as educate us.
We are very thankful for the help we have received over the years from T. Ryabova, G. Kiarizov, A. Klimuk and L. Babayev.
I do not think it is important for a new AT country to arrange shows just to appoint a breed champion, it is equally important to use the shows for educational and breed improvement purposes.
Any person who owns ATs can arrange a show at their farm and call the winner a breed champion today. We have NO international body that can control this.
It is not an ideal situation but it is true.
This kind of shows have already been arranged by a new breeder in Germany. I can only hope that this person will not inspire others to do so to. Then we will soon be drenched in not only elite graded horses but also breed champions of below average quality.
This is a reality in Europe and for the European breeders and it is destroying the market if there ever was one.
The Euro-Teke project was founded to steer the development towards a high standard system for arranging shows based on consensus between the national breed associations and knowledge transfer from Russia and Turkmenistan. The Euro-Teke group had the goal to make every European Teke nation to arrange breed shows so that the best horses from the European nations could compete in a European Championship that you had to qualify to enter. This, we thought would lead to a progressive work within the national associations to arrange breed shows with qualified judges etc.
The Best In Show in Sweden for example would have been qualified for the European Championships, but not the champion of the German stud farm.
The German show from September was initially announced as a Europa Championat after the EuroTeke group had commenced the work with informing and discussing with the national associations and MAAK via T. Ryabova.
I do not know if she mentioned this initiative to the MAAK members but she was positive to the idea as a whole and gave good input to how to manage such an event.
The EuroTeke group tried to work out a way of cooperating with the German team of the Europa Championat but we where turned down.
Later the Europa Championat was renamed Achal-Tekkiner Championat or Gut Ising Championat and became mostly a German affair where you could enter a horse to a show where you had no idea who would judge it.
This was inevitable as no communication or consensus was made with the European national associations if whether they would accept the group or their work as arranging a show where a European Champion would be appointed.
I have always been very critical to the World Championships arranged by MAAK as they have been arranged without consensus from the world's breed associations, MAAK have no jurisdiction over the world. A world champion can only been announced if it has been in competition with the best horse from every Teke nation in the world, for the MAAK arrangements this is not true as it is mostly a Russian affair.
What do we do about it, we reform MAAK, we keep on working, we hope, or maybe some of us chose other breeds with an existing infrastructure and a good market.

25. Leonid10/11/2005 00:44:07
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

MAAK (bed or good) is unique international organization. And we hav not another. We can improve activity MAAK only. But MAAK only can organize international show and to crown international champions. And this is real fact. Yes, ofcourse, we did not create correct sistem of champs and judging, but let's go ahead.

World championat in Moscow don't close, Who is prevents to take participient to foreins in this show?

26. Jessica 10/11/2005 14:24:05

I agree with you MAAK will have to be improved. I will work with suggestion that we can send to the MAAK board. MAAK has achieved good things to but in my opinion must work much harder to protect the Akhal-Teke trademark internationally and not only in Russia.
What have MAAK done in order to encourage international participants in the Moscow show? Yes there have been invitations sent out but for many it would have been easier if the world championships had been circulated among continents and countries to allow for more horses to attend. It would have been possible for us in Sweden to take a truck to go to Moscow with our horses, but we have not been ready to deal with the bureaucracy to go back and forth to Moscow. It is possible but quite complicated and a little bit of a risk we have felt, I am sure many will agree with us. I heard that one woman from Germany had planned to attend to the Moscow show this year, but I do not know if she made it to Moscow. MAAK must have noticed the lack of participants from outside CIS. When EuroTeke was communicating with MAAK they suggested that we opened the European Championship to all CIS countries. I think MAAK still is more CIS than international but that can be changed I hope. I am an optimist, still, and think there is a market for true Akhal-Tekes outside CIS.

27. Leonid10/12/2005 01:01:21
Homepage: http://www.shael-teke.ru

Bravo Jessica! We must decide this questions. We need to have international assembly.